gamey bombing

[WWhiskey]

rich
 your problem ,, or argument goes back to killing the ords! no ords no bombers, and by the way if you want to complain,, find me some historical data on IL-2's killing tigers in a single pass.
 i see that as much more of a problem than your lancs,
 because ords stay down for a while, bomber hangers only stay down 15 min.


 a good group of jugs can kill more gv.s than a set of lancs most days, and while i can kill gv's all day long in my lanc;s i said before i do it mostly thru the bomb sight! so do you want to stop me from doing that?
the fact that the lanc could dive from 1500 feet to 75 feet drop ord and return to 1500 feet in the length of a runway says that the plane could basically dive on a target kill it and pull away, and yes in that mission 8 of the 9 lancs went down but only one to a collision with its ord, the rest went down to enemy fire, those targets were defended well, they were able to dive pretty hard, bomb, and climb pretty hard in a short distance, they trained for it and did it, in the game if you do that you will kill yourself, unless you drop above 450 feet.
 the fact that f-3 is enabled is your real problem!!! target locating would be much more difficult after a hard turn or dive!! if you want the problem fixed maybe you should try to convince someone to disable that instead of porking the plane to meet your preferences in the game, tho i hope you are unsuccessful!
 

[WWhiskey]

The real issue here is that this is a tactical and not a strategic simulation. The reality is that formations are a bad idea and there is no need for any heavies in this game. further no bombers medium or heavy EVER flew formations like they do in AH. The losses due to accidents in both training and combat were very high do to collisions. Formation flying in a fully loaded B-24 was exceptionally difficult.

funny those look like formations to me
 besides groups  were created to help defend against fighters, with overlapping gunfire, the lanc's didn't fly them as tightly because hey bombed at night for  the last parts of the war, but when they flew daylight missions they also flew tight overlapping formations to help protect each other.  i don,t know why HTC has them but i like them

[thndregg]

there is no need for any heavies in this game.

There goes a hefty chunk of customer base.

[WWhiskey]

There goes a hefty chunk of customer base.

exactly

[bongaroo]

Do you guys think that the linked lazer guns on the formations are for fairness or a good representation of bomber defensive capabilities?

I ask simply because my Grandfather, after watching the game for a bit commented that he wished that his fellow gunners and formation planes all converged fire like they do in game when he was in a B17 on his way to bomb the Ploesti oil fields.

[Rich46yo]

rich
 your problem ,, or argument goes back to killing the ords! no ords no bombers, and by the way if you want to complain,, find me some historical data on IL-2's killing tigers in a single pass.
 i see that as much more of a problem than your lancs,
 because ords stay down for a while, bomber hangers only stay down 15 min.

Nobody is "complaining" here. None of this affects me. I drive a tank maybe three times a month and cant ever remember being stuka'd by a Lanc. But Ive seen it, and shot a lot down doing it, and to me it smells like that cartoon skunk Pepe Le Pew. I'm not looking up Tigers and IL-2s because the fact they are in the air shooting heavy cannon is at least historically accurate. Besides the best way to kill tanks, as it was in real life, is with either other tanks or Jabos dropping bombs/rockets. Lancasters and Heavy bombers did not dive bomb on them.

And I kill ords for a living Whiskey. I dont need to be reminded. This has nothing to do with ords.

Lastly, and this really is lastly cause I'm bored, I find F3 far more realistic then a gaggle of hairless/maladjusted teenies upping countless, use once & throw away, Lancs to ruin the fun of two crews tanking it out. Heavies had crews manning guns and had both eyes and comms on the bombers 360%. You cant take that away because bombers couldn't fly formation and track IB cons, while flying historical. Besides the excitable boys would just upp Lancstukas, fly from the front gunner using rudders, and then pop into pilots seat to drop on the dive.

My guess is if they havnt changed the model yet then they never will.

[humble]

Heavy bombers did not manuever like welded wing fighter Vics. Go ahead and enable friendly collisions and get the 3 best buff drivers you can and try and duplicate those moves. you want 3 buffs, take 3 pilots.

[Dadsguns]

So now the complaint is the guns, it was the dive bombing which I dont agree with, however now we have to find something else to whine about, GUNS.

Read closely, LEARN HOW TO ATTACK A BOMBER. 

Do you guys think that the linked lazer guns on the formations are for fairness or a good representation of bomber defensive capabilities?

YES!, 

"LAZER"?  As with any aircraft gun, you still have to aim them. 

With proper ACM and tactics, A well flown 190, spit, 110, can easily take out ALL 3 Bombers with ease in this game, factor in just one more fighter to help and most bombers are toast.  Fly one and find out.

If you or anyone else find yourself in the tower after attacking a Bomber, ask yourself what you could have done different, I think your looking for 3 kills in one pass and that simply is not realistic even in WWII.   

Again, many comments have been made to defend the bombers, and I agree with them. 

[bongaroo]

So now the complaint is the guns, it was the dive bombing which I dont agree with, however now we have to find something else to whine about, GUNS. 

Oh, I'm sorry!  I thought this was a disscussion.  Not a "look at the whiner and bash" thread.   

Read closely, LEARN HOW TO ATTACK A BOMBER. 

YES!, 

Did I ask for help in how to attack bombers?  No, I asked for opinions on how the defensive gunning affects gameplay.  A well defined question that you simply ignored and went into rant mode.

"LAZER"?  As with any aircraft gun, you still have to aim them. 

So after telling me to read closely on how to attack a bomber you don't even give any advice?  Your post is looking less and less useful the further I go!  At least you get to the gun subject I mentioned here, even if it is completely useless commentary.

With proper ACM and tactics, A well flown 190, spit, 110, can easily take out ALL 3 Bombers with ease in this game, factor in just one more fighter to help and most bombers are toast.  Fly one and find out.

Wow!  Look at this wealth of knowledge in how to attack a formation of bombers!  I'm sure I'll master it in no time! [/sarcasm]  Still didn't address my question or really give any good information on approaches, points to aim for, or even how to effectively use a wingman in the attack.  But thanks for the tip on an inceptor choice!   

If you or anyone else find yourself in the tower after attacking a Bomber, ask yourself what you could have done different, I think your looking for 3 kills in one pass and that simply is not realistic even in WWII.  

All 3 in one pass would be something to write home about.  Took two b24s and flamed the 3rd with a 262 one time.  It's about the only thing besides a lucky 110 pass that I would expect to get multiple kills in one pass with any regularity.  But where do you get this idea that I'm always expecting bombers to just die in droves?  All I had recently mentioned was how the bombers guns linked and converged.

I even gave a real world example.  My Grandfather also mentioned that no guns were that steady, especially the ones that weren't in a turret mount like the ball guns, the rear or top guns.

Sorry to lay into you so hard Dadsguns, but your post was nigh useless and didn't do anything to further the line of disscussion.

[WWhiskey]

Oh, I'm sorry!  I thought this was a disscussion.  Not a "look at the whiner and bash" thread.   

Did I ask for help in how to attack bombers?  No, I asked for opinions on how the defensive gunning affects gameplay.  A well defined question that you simply ignored and went into rant mode.

So after telling me to read closely on how to attack a bomber you don't even give any advice?  Your post is looking less and less useful the further I go!  At least you get to the gun subject I mentioned here, even if it is completely useless commentary.

Wow!  Look at this wealth of knowledge in how to attack a formation of bombers!  I'm sure I'll master it in no time! [/sarcasm]  Still didn't address my question or really give any good information on approaches, points to aim for, or even how to effectively use a wingman in the attack.  But thanks for the tip on an inceptor choice!   

All 3 in one pass would be something to write home about.  Took two b24s and flamed the 3rd with a 262 one time.  It's about the only thing besides a lucky 110 pass that I would expect to get multiple kills in one pass with any regularity.  But where do you get this idea that I'm always expecting bombers to just die in droves?  All I had recently mentioned was how the bombers guns linked and converged.

I even gave a real world example.  My Grandfather also mentioned that no guns were that steady, especially the ones that weren't in a turret mount like the ball guns, the rear or top guns.

Sorry to lay into you so hard Dadsguns, but your post was nigh useless and didn't do anything to further the line of disscussion.

try a 110 with 4 air to air rockets, about 1 to 1.5 behind, aim high fire two at the spot between two , kick rudder and fire the other two at the opposite side of the lead, once you get it right you will feel sorry for the bombers      also when i fire my guns in a bomber i have noticed they have a convergence just like the guns on your fighter(about 600 i think) stay out of that spot and you wont get hit by all those guns  unless he gets a lucky shot i can usually get most planes behind me with the gun i am sitting in, unless my target moves into that sweet spot, them by all means i am firing all of them,, but i fly lancs and they don't have very many defencive guns to start with , at least not like the 17's and 24's

[bongaroo]

try a 110 with 4 air to air rockets, about 1 to 1.5 behind, aim high fire two at the spot between two , kick rudder and fire the other two at the opposite side of the lead, once you get it right you will feel sorry for the bombers     

Thanks, but I really don't need this advice.  I'm very comfortable attacking a set of bombers.  I'm looking for more disscussion on how the bomber guns are modeled in game as compared to how they performed IRL.  I think they've been made much more powerful and accurate to balance the gameplay for bomber pilots.  Looking for more discussion in this regards.

also when i fire my guns in a bomber i have noticed they have a convergence just like the guns on your fighter(about 600 i think) stay out of that spot and you wont get hit by all those guns  unless he gets a lucky shot i can usually get most planes behind me with the gun i am sitting in, unless my target moves into that sweet spot, them by all means i am firing all of them,, but i fly lancs and they don't have very many defencive guns to start with , at least not like the 17's and 24's

See, more along the lines of what I was attempting to discuss.  Thanks!

[WWhiskey]

Thanks, but I really don't need this advice.  I'm very comfortable attacking a set of bombers.  I'm looking for more disscussion on how the bomber guns are modeled in game as compared to how they performed IRL.  I think they've been made much more powerful and accurate to balance the gameplay for bomber pilots.  Looking for more discussion in this regards.

See, more along the lines of what I was attempting to discuss.  Thanks!

i think someone else was complianing about not haveing an idea of how too shoot them down, wasnt you i imagine, if you want info, this isn,t the right place, try general forums.
 some people here want the bombers to be newtered or gone all together, if i was wanting something more than to defend the bomber drivers it would be the removal of the il-2 guns that can kill a tank in one pass, but instead i have just been trying to figure out how too beat them , instead of trying to get rid of them! no one has said if there was ever an account of this happening in real war. yet it happens in here a lot

[FiLtH]

  I agree with Ack Ack. There needs to be a max down angle allowed on heavys, or they rip.

[RTHolmes]

  I agree with Ack Ack. There needs to be a max down angle allowed on heavys, or they rip.

... but only if it models the real aircrafts performance envelope.

[Ack-Ack]

... but only if it models the real aircrafts performance envelope.

Agreed. 


ack-ack