P-51 vs La or Spits

[oakranger]

One of my squad mates is getting a bit frustrated with Las and Spits that he gets kill by in his pony. I showed him a few things that he should work on but i was wondering if there are others.  Dose anybody know the best way in fighting a La or Spit in a pony?

Cheers

[Motherland]

Don't... to be quite honest. I'm not saying that it's impossible to beat a Spixteen stick in a Pony, but in order to do so at MA altitudes you have to out fly him significantly in every respect.

[Anaxogoras]

I agree with Bubi.  The P-51 pilot should keep it fast and use hit and run tactics.  The Spitfire XVI and La-5/7 can both handily outmaneuver a P-51.  They climb and accelerate better, too.  We're assuming competent pilots here, of course, and for that reason expect the Spixteen or La-7 pilot to win a 1vs1 fight a big majority of the time.  Lastly, don't let people who call you "runstang" or other names get under your skin.

[Yenny]

Well 51 can dance pretty good. It just if u go up against a good pilot in a spit or la7, well sry you're outta luck. Practice TnB it in DA but for MA fun just keep the 51 BnZ. More enjoying doing that in the 51 then getting your arse handed to you every time you take it up. It's good to learn how to dance in the 51 for when you need to though, but try not to unless you have to!

[Rich46yo]

Yeah come in high, HO or vulch once, and then run. If theres a gaggle of ya then the mustang can be effective. If you make a mistake and an LA gets level with you with close to equal E then he's cooked.

On the other hand theres a few Pony sticks that can give an LA a hard time. The last time I ran into one at TT while flying an LA. He had about 1,000' on me, "which is no big deal", and I tried turning him and slowing him, beating him down lower, and he just slashed and used his energy so effectively I actually got into some trouble and probably would have lost had another plane not jumped in. Not that I'm that great mind you but Ive flown LAs against Mustangs a lot and this guy was really good with his flap work and/or tactics. Normally when you get a Mustang to pull flaps in a turn you got him.

I dont know who he was but he was aggressive and very good. "Most" of the time the hardest thing with a mustang is running them down. An LA can not only out turn it but has a big edge in climb and acceleration.

[BaldEagl]

BnZ them with the D Pony.  Keep the speed up and keep them on the defensive by reversing out of guns range and forcing them into continual evasives.  Extend if it gets too hot.

The B Pony might stand a chance with good throttle management and flap work, particularily against the La.  That will depend a lot on the pilots.

[humble]

The pony has an advantage vs both the la-7 and the spit XVI if the pony driver knows his plane.

La-7

The sweet spot for an la-7 is roughly 5,000 ft. above that it loses performance rapidly. The sweet spot for the pony is about 12k. While the la-7 is superior to the pony in a flat circle the pony can use the vertical and 1 notch of combat flaps to dominate the la-7. At lower alts the pony has a tougher set of issues but offset much of the la's advantage thru a higher speed E fight in the vertical obliques.

Unless the spit has alt or E its really just a target...

[oakranger]

Thx guys. everything you share is all i told my squad mate.  I told him that if he really wants to learn to control his flying, get into a 190. 

[Masherbrum]

The pony has an advantage vs both the la-7 and the spit XVI if the pony driver knows his plane.

La-7

The sweet spot for an la-7 is roughly 5,000 ft. above that it loses performance rapidly. The sweet spot for the pony is about 12k. While the la-7 is superior to the pony in a flat circle the pony can use the vertical and 1 notch of combat flaps to dominate the la-7. At lower alts the pony has a tougher set of issues but offset much of the la's advantage thru a higher speed E fight in the vertical obliques.

Unless the spit has alt or E its really just a target...

Damn good post.   

[Yenny]

The pony has an advantage vs both the la-7 and the spit XVI if the pony driver knows his plane.

La-7

The sweet spot for an la-7 is roughly 5,000 ft. above that it loses performance rapidly. The sweet spot for the pony is about 12k. While the la-7 is superior to the pony in a flat circle the pony can use the vertical and 1 notch of combat flaps to dominate the la-7. At lower alts the pony has a tougher set of issues but offset much of the la's advantage thru a higher speed E fight in the vertical obliques.

Unless the spit has alt or E its really just a target...

most of the fight at TT eventually end up otd aroudn 1k!

[dtango]

Karaya - I agree that snaphook's reply is excellent except the following point:

At lower alts the pony has a tougher set of issues but offset much of the la's advantage thru a higher speed E fight in the vertical obliques.

I disagree in the usual situations.  The thrust-to-weight ratio heavily favors the La-7 in this situation.  Quickest way to lose a fight with an La-7 is trying to E fight it in a Mustang in the vertical.

My $.02 - to successfully fight the La-7 or the Spit XVI in a Mustang, you have to figure out how to use other things besides the raw performance of the Mustang to win the fight.  Instead you need to out smart your opponent by exploiting other variables besides raw performance like differentials in airspeeds and angles to equalize or win the fight.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs





 

[Anaxogoras]

http://gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php

The P-51 doesn't have any power/weight advantage over the La-7 until you get to around 18k ft or more.

[humble]

Karaya - I agree that snaphook's reply is excellent except the following point:
I disagree in the usual situations.  The thrust-to-weight ratio heavily favors the La-7 in this situation.  Quickest way to lose a fight with an La-7 is trying to E fight it in a Mustang in the vertical.

My $.02 - to successfully fight the La-7 or the Spit XVI in a Mustang, you have to figure out how to use other things besides the raw performance of the Mustang to win the fight.  Instead you need to out smart your opponent by exploiting other variables besides raw performance like differentials in airspeeds and angles to equalize or win the fight.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

I agree completely...

Which is exactly why I suggested a fight in the semi-verticals (flying the X) at slightly higher speeds. Basically the pony driver has to out fly the lala driver. A fight in the pure vertical or a flat turning fight simply hand the contest to the la-7. My thought is that i'm going to fly the "X", work the flaps and throttle and get the la driver out of sync. Basically I'm flying a fast angles fight hidden inside an "E fight". I want the lala chasing me on the up hill leg and then catching him overspeeding on the downhill. I think that against any but the best la drivers the pony has an edge in a decelerating decending fight as you work thru the 1st 2 flap settings. If you cant saddle up quickly obviously got to roll away clean up and run like a scalded dog....





 

[Anaxogoras]

Snaphook, when you say "out fly," is that the same as saying that the 51 pilot is more skilled and knows his ride better than the La-7 pilot?  What if they are equal in these respects?

[humble]

http://gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php

The P-51 doesn't have any power/weight advantage over the La-7 until you get to around 18k ft or more.

Pardon me but if you look at the chart you posted the pony has roughly a 20mph speed advantage at 12k and an equal climb rate. It also has combat flaps that help it significantly in higher speed turns. you'll also see the pony on wep is faster from 8k on up. The real key here is the quality of ACM the pony driver uses. The la will win a flat or looping fight but if the pony uses the "X" and combat flaps he's got the edge vs any but another outstanding pilot.