Gamey bombing - From a fighter pilot's perspective

[33Vortex]

  If a fighter is attacking the 6 of a B17 formation, the likely guns that would fire are the upper,lower and tail turrets depending on alt. If it was a high attack, the upper and tail of bomber would fire, and from turrets. Any bomber that had a shot would fire. Realistically some gunners may be better than others, but since most attacks are done rather carelessly in here by fighters, even an average trained gunner would likely score hits.

  Remember many people in fighters in here hang back at 1000 and lob rounds at the bombers getting hits as well. The main thing to remember is we have much more practice at gunnery than do the real life guys of WW2 had. That and its a video game. Some of the lead I take in shooting at an attacking fighter in a high 6 slashing attack is as much as 8 wingspans at times. Its not so much the lazer affect, as it is practice and knowing how to aim the guns in this game. Practice due to hours of playing. I often wonder how a tank can kill my tank at long range while im full speed 90 degree deflection...practice. The guy does it alot.

  If you do something enough, you cant help but get better at it.

Some guys have a scary ability to hit attacking fighters, even when carrying out diving attacks. That if anything is respectable, I don't mind getting shot down. That's what some people really take backwards. Getting shot down is part of the game if you can't handle it don't play it. This is a post intended to give a fighter pilot's perspective of what could be considered "gamey" concerning bombers. Right now I don't think these things are a priority for HTC but since there was a thread going debating the issue of "lancstukas", a problem I see little or nothing of as I fly fighters most of the time. I have no beef with bomber guys or gunners (or whoever for that matter) who know how to shoot. Like I said, it's a very respectable skill. Fearsome even, it gets you killed, nothing to joke about or belittle.

Quite a few have taken up the argument to kill ords. In many situations it's not a viable option unless you have a whole squad doing it, spreading out to take out a whole area. Even if you can manage it, it is only for a limited time. The issues I've taken up I don't see as huge problems that ruin the game, but merely something that could be improved upon.

There are so many ways people can misunderstand a post it's bound to happen, especially when people do it more or less aware of what they're doing. I don't have the patience to maintain a prolonged discussion on a bbs as people more often than not try to undermine arguments and discredit posters. In fact, I don't have the patience to maintain a discussion with a person irl who consistently and more or less intently misinterprete what I say. Do you? Just not worth the time to bother imo. Respect is a misconception around here, people think they have to earn it some way or another by being cool. Wrong. Respect is a given, until you prove otherwise.

Agree with CAVPFCDD, there's always going to be people who "game the game" taking it to redicilous levels.

Those of you who repeatedly shout about killing ords or think that I or we are jumping on you or your way of having fun ingame, please take some time to relax.

[RAM]

The other day I took a 109K4 for a ride. Soon a dar con showed on the map towards the base I had just taken off.

A formation of Lancasters at some 16+k. As they did their passes, I climbed on WEP, discarding the DT as I crossed 10k, and started the chase. Climbing slightly I soon was par with him ,some 3k to his starboard side, some 2k higher, and slowly gaining on him. When he was on my 7-8 o clock, turned towards them for a HO pass. I missed and exitted as fast as I could. Climbed a bit, surpassed him again, but then I noticed he was lower, and much faster.

To make a long story short: the whole formation of Lancs did a 400mph IAS high speed long, shallow dive from 16-17 to 3k altitude (where he was covered by his fleet's ack). I could do very little about it, the 109's controls freeze at 420mph IAS as you all know, and I couldn't maneouver well for my passes so only in the end after a very aggressive attack that put me at his direct low 6 (and after risking my skin to be fried by his deffensive guns which indeed got quite some hits on me) I could pop some 30mms on one of his drones, already with fleet ack shooting at me and an enemy field nearby.

Broke contact, congratulated the pilot on a smart move, and rtb/landed. The pursuit had lasted for about a whole sector since he started his high speed dive, but I couldn't do very well against 400mph+ IAS bombers fearing as I do their pinpoint laser multi-barreled defensive fire accuracy. I had some 3-4 passes on him, but only on the last one and risking my virtual skin I achieved to get solid hits.

Net result: 20 minutes of chase and hunt to get just one drone and be forced to break off because the enemy formation flew at fighter speeds in perfect bomber formation. And I was lucky, last pass was from his dead 6 o clock' low, if I wasn't blazed to bits is because of sheer and pure luck.


The next two interceptions I did ended with dead engines aboard Fw190A8s because of lazer accuracy from defensive guns, fired from bombers flying in perfect formation at top speed, fired at a fighter coming at them at high speeds ,from avobe, and from lateral positions (approaches from 4-8 o clock in high speed dives).

Since then I simply refuse to attack heavy bombers flying in formation. They are fighter deathtraps unless they're looking elsewhere or someone has already killed their drones.


I'm not advocating for change or not change of bombers. But as they are now they are not bombers, they are flying highly dangerous gameplay concessions. It's fine with me, though, I simply ignore them and have fun fighting everything else in the game .

<S>

[Oleg]

To make a long story short: the whole formation of Lancs did a 400mph IAS high speed long, shallow dive from 16-17 to 3k altitude (where he was covered by his fleet's ack). I could do very little about it, the 109's controls freeze at 420mph IAS as you all know, and I couldn't maneouver well for my passes so only in the end after a very aggressive attack that put me at his direct low 6 (and after risking my skin to be fried by his deffensive guns which indeed got quite some hits on me) I could pop some 30mms on one of his drones, already with fleet ack shooting at me and an enemy field nearby.

What wrong here? On the contrary, it was very clever, fair and realistic move, imho. It littile weird what drones still able to mantain formation, but I dont sure what they must do. Asking for loosing drones due to "overspeed" (not real overspeed, cause drones are same as lead plane) in such situation is silly at least. (anyway, i hate when bombers do this to me, because it makes them much harder targets )

btw, I doubt lanc can do 400mhp IAS though, last time I tried, it riped apart after ~350mph or so, if I remember correctly.

So called "lazer accuracy" is myth spreaded by ppl who think bombers must be just dead meat, and got pissed alot if they loose.

[Dadsguns]

Some guys have a scary ability to hit attacking fighters, even when carrying out diving attacks. That if anything is respectable, I don't mind getting shot down. That's what some people really take backwards. Getting shot down is part of the game if you can't handle it don't play it. This is a post intended to give a fighter pilot's perspective of what could be considered "gamey" concerning bombers. Right now I don't think these things are a priority for HTC but since there was a thread going debating the issue of "lancstukas", a problem I see little or nothing of as I fly fighters most of the time. I have no beef with bomber guys or gunners (or whoever for that matter) who know how to shoot. Like I said, it's a very respectable skill. Fearsome even, it gets you killed, nothing to joke about or belittle.

Quite a few have taken up the argument to kill ords. In many situations it's not a viable option unless you have a whole squad doing it, WRONG, One plane can take out ords in a large air base if you learn some skill spreading out to take out a whole area. Even if you can manage it, it is only for a limited time. The issues I've taken up I don't see as huge problems that ruin the game, but merely something that could be improved upon.

There are so many ways people can misunderstand a post it's bound to happen, especially when people do it more or less aware of what they're doing. I don't have the patience to maintain a prolonged discussion on a bbs as people more often than not try to undermine arguments and discredit posters. In fact, I don't have the patience to maintain a discussion with a person irl who consistently and more or less intently misinterprete what I say. Do you? Just not worth the time to bother imo. Respect is a misconception around here, people think they have to earn it some way or another by being cool. Wrong. Respect is a given, until you prove otherwise.

Agree with CAVPFCDD, there's always going to be people who "game the game" taking it to redicilous levels.

Those of you who repeatedly shout about killing ords or think that I or we are jumping on you or your way of having fun ingame, please take some time to relax.

There is currently two threads that are similar but share one thing in common, BOMBERS. 
Both have someone in them complaining about bombers yet bottom line as well as you admit, DO NOT FLY THEM or understand them.

Bombers are a key instrument in this game, not just fighters, to complain about gamey bombing in this game is one argument and should be addressed to limit that. 

However in this thread and the other, it morphs into the brink of getting rid of bombers altogether, that's where I have a problem with this gibberish.

[33Vortex]

I have never even considered the alternative to get rid of bombers altogether, they are a necessary and natural part of the game. Where do you even get that from? 

I think you're misunderstanding something, and why is it that you have to type in such big letters, it's not necessary. Also, to state that "One plane can take out ords in a large air base if you learn some skill" is to take a very arrogant stance which is counterproductive if you want people to take you seriously.

So called "lazer accuracy" is myth spreaded by ppl who think bombers must be just dead meat, and got pissed alot if they loose.

Oleg, please don't assume such things. In the original post I never mentioned such a thing as "lazer accuracy" and I don't think anyone in this discussion think that bombers should be dead meat, even if they use such terms.

To state my own opinion concerning bomber formations as targets. Bombers are easy to shoot down, but it's totally dependant on the bomber pilot and if he has a good gunner or can gun himself. Some bombers are impossible to shoot down, because the guy know what he's doing, but most bombers are easy targets, because the guy is not aware of all the defensive actions he can take, or has put himself in a really bad position. Taking off from a front field for example is a deathwish (for anyone really not just bombers).
The same applies to fighters actually, some guys seem almost untouchable. People get frustrated and call them cowards, picktards or whatnot. It's a proof of skill, to fly in a way so that you don't get shot down, it's undisputable regardless of what plane you're in. However, some maneuvers carried out do strike me as kindof gamey, and it's not limited to bombers alone.

The blame game here and in game is a result of misunderstandings and misiterpretations, not taking into account hurt egos of shot down pilots. If you can't stand getting shot down, don't play the game, it's that simple. I don't discuss with people calling me, or anyone else for that matter, names only because they can't shoot me down. To me it just proves their frustration and lack of skill to counter mine. I respect those who shoot me down, especially those who I have met on equal terms in a good fight. However, the nature of war is such that if you take on someone in a fair fight you've failed already. You want to strike fast and hard at a enemy unaware, is the ideal. If someone catch me unaware, kudos to him/her. That is my standpoint.

In the end it's a game, it simulates air combat real well imo but like I said there's always room for improvement.

Did that straighten a few things out for you guys? I can only speak for myself but I don't think anyone want to get rid of bombers, that's a very stupid thing to believe.

[Oleg]

Oleg, please don't assume such things. In the original post I never mentioned such a thing as "lazer accuracy"...

Hm? 

3) Laser accuracy on defensive guns.

The next two interceptions I did ended with dead engines aboard Fw190A8s because of lazer accuracy from defensive guns...

... and I don't think anyone in this discussion think that bombers should be dead meat, even if they use such terms.

May be you not, but many think exactly so. Its not first thread about bombers after all.

[BaldEagl]

Desperate to evade the lights, Coulombe put the big Lancaster into a steep dive, soon exceeding the 350-mph dive-limit speed at 450 mph. At the last moment, feet on the instrument panel, he muscled the shuddering bomber out of its death-defying dive and slipped anonymously into the comforting darkness, away from the insidious searchlights.
- http://www.richthistle.com/article_include.php?i=a26_long_road_home.php

In a hard dive the prototype aircraft achieved speeds reaching almost 400 mph (644 km/h) with production aircraft (operational loadout) being limited to 360 mph (578 km/h).
- http://www.pilotfriend.com/photo_albums/timeline/ww2/Avro%20Lancaster.htm

[33Vortex]

Hm? 

 

Sorry, I'd change that if I could. The term "laser accuracy" is quite stupid. Forgive me, I'm only human. 

[RAM]

Lets get the things straight, those lancs were going at 400mph IAS+. I had to really make do with a 109 with almost cemented controls in my passes and my closure rate was not exactly great. But I'm not discussing wether the 400mph IAS mark in a shallow dive is realistic or not, nor I'm discussing wether the player did well or not (he did an amazing job, and I congratulated him for it). I'm discussing wether a formation of lancasters would keep a perfect close formation while doing so. Something I highly doubt.

As for laser accuracy guns, I got two Fw190A8 engines shot out in high speed dives from the bomber's high 4 and 8 o clock respectively, at distances of 600-500 yards at the closest.
In my book that is laser accuracy, and this I can say for sure is NOT realistic given WW2 bomber gunner statistics of impacts on fighters attacking buff boxes. Whoever discusses the gunners in the buffs have a buffed up accuracy for gameplay purposes, simply don't play this game or simply don't know about historic facts. Either way, fact remains that buff gunnery is not realistic at all, and formations don't improve the situation at all.

as I say ,I'm fine with bombers as they are now, and I'm not calling for any change as others do here. I simply don't attack them unless they are peashooter bombers (junkers 88 ,bostons, etc), they are distracted by someone else, or they are without their formation. And that's all . But I can understand those who are pissed off by their power within the game.

S!

[FiLtH]

   RAM all guns are fairly accurate on all things except maybe the base AA and some tank guns that seem to have a built in drift. Any fighter I shoot with, the tracers are all straight to target with no rogue rounds veering off. It just seems as its easier from a bomber because its a stable turret with the bomber flying level.
   Ever shot a bombers guns at a spit16 or 190 coming in stirring the whole way? Thats no more fun than having the bomber shoot down your fighter, but its in the game, and we deal with it.

   Im with you though, unless I think I can get away with it, I stay away from a B24/B17 while in a fighter.

[BaldEagl]

I hunt buffs all the time.  I'm having an off camp but I'm still 29:5 against B-17's, B-24's, B-25's, B-26's and Lancasters.  Normally I'd expect to be ~25:1.  Most of those kills are in a Spit XVI with a few in the 109K-4 and the FW190A-8 although you can successfully buff hunt in anything.  I was 3:1 against Lancs in a Spit I a couple of camps ago and at least three of my kills this camp came in a 109K-4 using only the 2x13mm's.  To top it off, a few of my deaths this camp are to collisions, not guns.

The heavy buffs guns are accurate and deadly if you're climbing up their six.  If you're dying a lot to heavies it's probably time to change tactics while attacking them.

BTW Ram, all you have to do in the K-4 is use manual elevator trim and it will give you all the dive speed you want.

[RAM]

BTW Ram, all you have to do in the K-4 is use manual elevator trim and it will give you all the dive speed you want.

I know, but lateral corrections are much harder to do with trims only. And if you can't bank chances are you won't hit.

And I didn't, until the last "gung-ho" pass.

I don't have much more to discuss either, for me attacking heavies in formation is a receipt for a fast trip back to tower. If you kill buffs with 2x13mm, hats off to you, because I'm not even trying with 4x20mm anymore, go figure .