Icons - a plague or blessing?

[Fokker]

I have seen many opinions about icons and suggestions for how to make them work for the best gameplay. have not seen much about it in here lately, so I make a tread now.

In AH where your enemy can use same plane as yourself icons of some sort are neccessary.

In any sim, because the technology yet cannot make identification of ACs possible at the same distance as in real life, some sort of icons are needed to compensate. The same is relevant for judging speed, heading and distance.

However, at distances less than about 3K icons could be turned off, or just show a simplyfied icon for friends.

As it is now the icons can totally clutter the view when many planes are fighting tight in same area, or large formations of planes are gathered.

[Squidzilla]

In AH where your enemy can use same plane as yourself icons of some sort are neccessary

 Along with computer technology not being up to par nor does everyone all have $500 video cards or 21" .25dpp monitors. So we need icons.

 We just don't need big honking billboards as we do now

 Something smaller and semi-transparant would be nice. Not a give away but an identifier for only when you DO spot an enemy plane.

 

[Ripsnort]

If you think they are big now, ask a few of the beta folks that were around how big they used to be..

[ra]

Within 3K is where you need icons the most.  Many planes are nearly invisible, even at shooting distances.  Look at a Yak9, Niki, or even a B-26 from D5 with no icons.  Against the right background they are invisible.  This would not be the case in the real world.  In daylight at 500 yards any plane would be very easy to see, regardless of camo.

Icons are necessary to make up for the tiny, blurry world we see on our monitor.  AH has great icons because they disappear when the plane itself is not visible, so you can't use the icon for deflection shooting at a plane which is under your nose, and they don't give away the position of a plane which is hidden from your view.

Icons are a simplistic solution to the problem of poor resolution, but they are necessary to give us decent visual cues which are missing with the hardware we have today. There may be ways to improve icons, like making them come on farther out for larger planes, but we need them or we will be squinting to see planes that are right in front of our guns.

Someday when we have hi-res VR glasses we will be able to go without icons.

ra

[Pepe]

How about changing Icon & rangefinder's size & colour, according to relative distance? Ideally would be a progressive change in font size, from a very tiny, almost unreadable, with opaque colouring, some greyish (same colour both for enemies & friendlies), to the actual BIG, NEON BRIGHT or NEON GREEN one when you are, say, 800 ysds. away. From 800yds., no range indicator, just the icon.

Another .02 (Nobody told me AH would be so expensive   )

Pepe

[Fokker]

Ra, I dont realy understand your arguments. Against some backgrounds planes should be difficult to see, as in the real world.

Some planes has a smaller siluhette than others, and thus should be more difficult to spot. Makes sense to me.

At close range the icons do nothing realy than in an unrealistic way to give you distance to target. The only thing I need at close distance is a clue of friend or foe as long as it can be the same plane.

[AKSeaWulfe]

 

Originally posted by Fokker:
Ra, I dont realy understand your arguments. Against some backgrounds planes should be difficult to see, as in the real world.

Yeah, but when you are close enough to see the hair on their ass... well no matter what color plane they are flying the camo isn't going to do any good. The problem is computer colors, they are simply not diverse enough to show a great deal of difference between planes (shiny, or dull coat) and the world (terrain) which has it's own 3D objects on it not just painted on trees and shrubs.
-SW

[Fokker]

Well Wulfe - when I get close enough to see the hair on their bellybutton I sure do not need icons. I might rather need a face mask or some tissue paper i belive  

[Ripsnort]

V1.02 Read me:
Switched to a new font and made icons smaller.

Fokker, you're new to the sim.  Give it awhile, hell, I don't even notice the icon text once I've identifed (from a distance) that the con is enemy.  In our Historical events, we have modified icons.  Think "new flyers" when your in the main, and the icon concessions made there within.

[AKSeaWulfe]

Hell with some of these guys you're going to need a full blown anti-radiation suit and a kevlar body suit! ;-)
-SW

[Hans]

I like icons.  I KNOW they are not realistic in any sense of the word, but I think we need them.

Of all the sims I have played where it comes down to gunfights, either you have a IFF in you jet, or you have to padalock the nearest enemy.

There was only one game I've played before this that made identification easy, and that was Aces of the Pacific.  You could tell friend from foe by the color of the aircraft (Blue or drab green = US....Bright green = Japanese).

We fly any of the aircraft available, so you need icons.

The only other thing that might help is custom paintjobs for each country, even if it only applies to the theater and squadron bands on the planes.  Thus a Knight P-51 is painted different than a Rook P-51.

Hans.

[LLv34_Camouflage]

In my opinion, the icons should go over major revisions.  If I could decide, I'd remove enemy icons altogether.  If you haven't ever tried flying without enemy icons in the MA, I recommend you try it.  Its pretty cool.    Our squadron flies weekly without icons in the H2H, in 4vs4 historical plane set engagements.  I've noticed that with a little practise you'll get the hang of it very quickly and find the fights much more enjoyable.  For non-historical mixed plane set fights friendly-only-icons will have to be used, of course.

Since most people are prejudiced and can't fly without their crutches, it might be better not to remove enemy icons altogether. But the enemy range icon should definately be removed within 1000 yards.  The plane id icon could stay, so that people with 15" inch monitors playing at 800x600 can have a level playing field.  The lack of the laser rangefinder would make gunnery a bit more realistic. Right now it is quite far from what I think most believe it should be.

The friendly range icon is necessary for formation flying, imho.

I believe the best solution would be to give the CM's the ability to tweak the icon settings and parameters and test them for example in the weekly events.  I'm sure this would be a welcomed feature.  If the community would find some settings better than the current ones, they might be introduced in the MA as well?

Camo

------------------
Camouflage
XO, Lentolaivue 34
 www.muodos.fi/LLv34

Brewster into AH!

"The really good pilots use their superior judgement to keep them out of situations
where they might be required to demonstrate their superior skill."

[Fokker]

I think that are good points Camouflage. Some trials in scenarios will give those who has not seen other than what is a chance to test what they like.

Ripsnort, I am not new to flight sims. I have been online about dayly for soon 10 years with flight sims. I sure am an hardcore online player. You wont see Fokker as my handle in AH. I use another handle there  

One thing I have never seen is to have icons as is for long range ID, but have the  icons turned off at less than 2-3K, except for a simplyfied icon for friends. At less than 2K i believe the resolution even in 800x600 will be good enough.

Another thing I should like to test is to use my command to turn off icons also make my icon not show for other players except a simplyfied icon for friends. Thus those who like icons could use them, and those who dont could fly without.

[Toad]

Do a search for "icons".

There have been some really good alternative suggestions made in other threads.

They are not a plague.. or a blessing. Right now, their something we need in a MA with all planes available to all sides. They are also something we need because a 2D monitor doesn't give you anywhere near as many visual cues as you'd get in RL. At it's heart, ACM is based on visual cues.

Wouldn't hurt to experiment; we've been using this system for 10 years +. Technology has improved since then.

[illo]

I have allways liked no icons better. I know most people disagree with me.

With mixed planes icons are necessary. I would only reduce Icon range to 3k and drop rangefinder out completely.

Formation flying shouldnt be impossible without rangefinder, we fared quite well in WB scenarios by just informing wingmen about our throttle and speed settings. With prop pitch you can make even smaller adjustements here than in WB.