Author Topic: Tank vs. airplane  (Read 2760 times)

Offline olskool2

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Re: Tank vs. airplane
« Reply #75 on: December 11, 2008, 08:07:56 AM »
Bozon's post above seems to be right mathematically, but even that does not take into account the co-ordination between tank crews, and the time delays involved with that. Shooting a plane moving 250 laterally and vertically with a gun that was designed to shoot tanks on flat ground, is gamey a best.

And no, the object of the discussion is not necessarily that it is possible with the plane flying directly at the gun. Even that shot in real life would be hard to make because by the time the commander had got the gunner lined up on target (assuming the tank was actually pointed in at least the general direction the plane was coming), the plane would probably have already flown over the tank. The true gamey aspect is the shot that are 2.5k+ out, with movement through several different planes.

The factors that make these types of shot near impossible (or more of an impossibility) in real life are not accounted for in Ah2. In short, the time delay in co-ordination of the crew, wind (which probably has a quite noticeable effect on tank rounds, due to size and ballistics), and probably even barometric pressure and heat of the gun itself (I know both of these factors are taking in quite heavily when aiming large AA guns).

Offline kvuo75

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Re: Tank vs. airplane
« Reply #76 on: December 11, 2008, 08:33:56 AM »
Now, lets check the timing accuracy - There is no timing aid (lead indicator), at least not in a tank. The shell is subsonic (or is it?), so we'll assume 300 m/s ~Mach0.9. At 1000m this means ~3 seconds flight time to hit a target that will stay in the kill zone for 0.15 sec. You need a relative timing estimation of 0.05 accuracy. I don't have any data for that, but it would be interesting how accurate can a person estimate 3 seconds.

the first T34 stats I find= the 76mm did 680m/s and the 85mm 792m/s


most definitely supersonic


which reminds me of another thing I've brought up before.. How is it we can hear the tank gun muzzle blast BEFORE the projectile impacts?

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Offline F111

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Re: Tank vs. airplane
« Reply #77 on: December 11, 2008, 08:46:40 AM »
the first T34 stats I find= the 76mm did 680m/s and the 85mm 792m/s


most definitely supersonic


which reminds me of another thing I've brought up before.. How is it we can hear the tank gun muzzle blast BEFORE the projectile impacts?



Because you are closer to the gun than the impact point?

Offline druski85

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Re: Tank vs. airplane
« Reply #78 on: December 11, 2008, 09:44:45 AM »
No there's no way sound should hit first.  Its just a factor which wasn't implemented in the game.  If a tank round was moving 300 m/s (984 f/s) the penetration would be awful, and hitting moving targets would be nearly impossible. 

Offline ScatterFire

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Re: Tank vs. airplane
« Reply #79 on: December 11, 2008, 10:09:18 AM »
Bozon's post above seems to be right mathematically, but even that does not take into account the co-ordination between tank crews, and the time delays involved with that. Shooting a plane moving 250 laterally and vertically with a gun that was designed to shoot tanks on flat ground, is gamey a best.

And no, the object of the discussion is not necessarily that it is possible with the plane flying directly at the gun. Even that shot in real life would be hard to make because by the time the commander had got the gunner lined up on target (assuming the tank was actually pointed in at least the general direction the plane was coming), the plane would probably have already flown over the tank. The true gamey aspect is the shot that are 2.5k+ out, with movement through several different planes.

The factors that make these types of shot near impossible (or more of an impossibility) in real life are not accounted for in Ah2. In short, the time delay in co-ordination of the crew, wind (which probably has a quite noticeable effect on tank rounds, due to size and ballistics), and probably even barometric pressure and heat of the gun itself (I know both of these factors are taking in quite heavily when aiming large AA guns).
At the same time, those arguing against it are not taking into account most of the reasons it can happen too.  Mainly:
1) Sheer number of opportunities (you can't compare the amount of combat time we get to "real life")
2) Ability to "learn" from your previous mistakes (you don't die)
3) Unrealistic attack angles from the aircraft (slow level attacks lining up from a distance?  lol)
 
I can tell you the planes I have shot down have been under three circumstances:

1) (Least Common) Plane attacks the rear of my tank, over flies and goes straight away from me.  This puts them right in my gun sites but flying away.  I rarely hit this one.
2) (Second most common) Plane does attack number one, then does a 180 and comes straight back.  Since I was already trying to line up for the shot in part number one, this is an easy hit.  I just wait until about 600 yds then fire with the aim bar at ~500.  Something a real pilot would have never done.
3) Plane has upped and is moving towards me from the airfield.  I've been watching it for 10k+ yards, waiting for it to come in to attack.  Easy shot, and something a real pilot would have never done because of the danger.  :huh

I have shot down probably 20 planes, but have died 100s of times to them.  I would have never figured out how to make those attacks if this were "real life".  Plus the pilots I hit are always doing something to make my life easier.  I'm not a very good shot (1.78% hit rate in planes, hehe) yet I have a 6%+ hit rate with tanks, even though I return to the field without ammo for my machine guns almost every time simply because the planes are LETTING me dump ammo into them.  I've lost count of how many planes that have left smoking because they approach nice and slow and I fill their engine with .30 cal.  I rarely drop one before I die, but that tells you exactly how most of my adversaries are flying.

You don't want to get hit by a tank?  Increase your attack angles, be aware of where the enemy's field of fire are and don't let me follow your movements for 1+ minutes to line up for the shot.  If you don't follow those rules in real life you die too  :aok

And come play in a GV.  Try to kill a plane yourself and see how far you get if they do things right.
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Offline Shuffler

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Re: Tank vs. airplane
« Reply #80 on: December 11, 2008, 12:57:13 PM »
And anti-tank aircraft didn't come in at a low angle either. If you do, don't cry when you die.

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Offline dirtdart

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Re: Tank vs. airplane
« Reply #81 on: December 11, 2008, 06:53:09 PM »
Well, it has been a couple of weeks, and shazaam the post continues.  All I really want to know is the size if the tank round as it travels though space.  Is it always  a scaled 7.5 cm? As far as the tank guys go.... you guys have to admit it is just part of the game, we use the TOW as an ground to helicopter weapon, no the 25mm bushmaster on the brads and I am sure there is a good reason for it.  The M1 is very accurate, but remember the barrel is not rifled either.  Gee I wonder if the effect of rifling is taken into account in the game...lol.  Cheers all and thanks for posting, again, not a whine, an observation.
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Offline E25280

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Re: Tank vs. airplane
« Reply #82 on: December 11, 2008, 07:13:49 PM »
the first T34 stats I find= the 76mm did 680m/s and the 85mm 792m/s


most definitely supersonic


which reminds me of another thing I've brought up before.. How is it we can hear the tank gun muzzle blast BEFORE the projectile impacts?


I believe it was in Ross Carter's "Those Devils in Baggy Pants" where the author complained that one of the main reason the US soldiers despised German 88s was that the explosion happened before they could hear the round coming in, giving them no time to hit the dirt.
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Offline splitatom

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Re: Tank vs. airplane
« Reply #83 on: December 11, 2008, 07:26:05 PM »
if its at long range you can dodge the round most of my kills i fire when they are 800 ft away
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Offline kvuo75

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Re: Tank vs. airplane
« Reply #84 on: December 12, 2008, 08:18:33 AM »
Because you are closer to the gun than the impact point?

no, i mean incoming.. say a tank sittin 1500 yds away.. you'll hear his gun fire, THEN the round hits you   :huh
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Offline Shuffler

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Re: Tank vs. airplane
« Reply #85 on: December 12, 2008, 12:42:38 PM »
Turn the sound down for outside gunfire :)
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Offline Lye-El

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Re: Tank vs. airplane
« Reply #86 on: December 13, 2008, 06:12:01 PM »
No, I am saying that hitting planes with somewhat consistency at 3k is not accurate. Also look at my previous post in which someone hit a plane at 1.5k flying perpendicular to the tank.

Done it at 3K with an Osti a few times. I don't see how a tank would be any different, they just fire slower. Round speed between the two is probably comparable. Round drop at 3k probably favors the tank. Just a semi educated guess on my part.


i dont got enough perkies as it is and i like upen my lancs to kill 1 dang t 34 or wirble its fun droping 42 bombs