Damage modeling - Update

[SgtPappy]

The following was posted by Hazard69 concerning his *great* ideas for improvements in damage modeling:
"The following is my wish-list pertaining to AH2's damage modelling:

1. Self sealing fuel tanks on aircraft that had them. Also when a tank is hit and leaks out, the "I'm damaged, come pick/gang me" vapour trail should stop.

2. When flaps are hit the visual graphics show a flap fall off, but the FM considers it as a jammed flap. I think the two conditions should be separated and have correct rendering for each.

3. When a flap is jammed please, pretty please with sugar on top stop auto-retracting the other flap. If auto-retract is to simulate pilot action at VFE, no pilot in his right mind would retract one flap with the other jammed (I don't think aircraft systems would have allowed asymmetric flap extension either, but I can't confirm that for WW2 era planes). Perhaps just leave them both extended and if speed exceeds a limit tear them off like we do for the gears.

4. Engine fires. Way more common than fuel tank fires. Gives the potential for corrective action (i.e. fire extinguishers for large multi engine planes that may have had them). Also in our single engined fighters gives potential for "fogging up" the cockpit or perhaps even a pilot wound due to burns if the pilot doesn't bail out.
<IMHO would end the "flying on fire forever" issue">

5. Flight controls. Currently we have the control surfaces "fall off" to simulate them being pumped full of holes and rendered aerodynamically ineffective. Could we please have some incidents of a control surface jamming?

6. Kill crediting. Could we allocate kill points per component? (Don't confuse with damage points). People are credited for kills on the basis of tactical damage to aircraft rather than the total damage. If I pump the right wing full of 30cal rounds but not to breaking point. Then along comes a friendly and puts a single 20mm round in the cockpit. Should I really be credited for the kill? Not in this case. However if he put that 20mm into the right wing and tore it off, then yes I do get credit.

7. Tracks. I know tracks are one of the few things on the GVs that can be damaged by aircraft guns and have myself many times tracked a panzer with 20mm rounds. Then a friendly who took the time to drive up and end him with a 75mm shot gets an assist and I get a kill? Clearly the kill is his and perhaps No.6 above would also resolve this issue.

8. Lastly (and this isn't really a serious one), but on a pilot bailing out we see the plane spiral down and crash into the ground. Could we have the same effect when a pilot is killed in the cockpit instead of the puffball?

That's all I can think of right now, maybe more will follow later "

I'd like to add:

9. Jamming guns. or at least an option for them in a similar fashion as stall limiter or tracers. A good amount of the kills I ever get in Spitfires and Mustang III/P-51B's are +G kills. I'll pull up to 5 G's executing lead as I fire. With the Spitfire's belts running into the Hispanos relatively unchecked by a belt guide, jams were pretty common. The Mustang III/P-51B had that horridly awkward MG setup. I'm not sure exactly at how many G's the guns would most often jam, but I know it was common; moreso than the Spitfires.

[Karnak]

Spitfires did not have a problem firing under G load any more than firing in the conditions was an issue for most WWII fighters.  The failure of the Hispano Mk I installations on the Spitfire Mk Ib and Mk IIb mislead people to think that later Spitfires had jamming problems.

[NEARY]

i think that all of these are good ideas but #6 would really improve gameplay.

[B4Buster]

I think those are great ideas, and I agree 100% the damage modeling should be updated

[Motherland]

The self-sealing fuel tank works on untreated rubber expanding on contact with the fuel (or, at least, this is my understanding, correct me if I'm wrong). This kind of system would NOT be capable of sealing a leak from a 20 or 30mm shell exploding inside of it.
Generally, you will not get gas leaks from singe .50 or .30 caliber hits, only in a lightly concentrated burst. I can believe that this would be similar to the results of a real self-sealing fuel tank being hit.

[skribetm]

self sealing tanks only work when hit with smaller caliber rounds, .303's, 7.22mms, 12mms, and >>1 or 2 rounds of .50cals<<[not sure].

no.6; whoever downs the plane should get the kill, not the one who sprayed the most.

[SgtPappy]

Ah rgr thanks guys.

Yes Karnak, the Spitfire Ib/IIb had the cannon jamming problem because they had their cannons placed sideways I think? Plus the wings weren't contoured to carry them effectively. However, the Spitfires still did have jamming guns... 6 G jam perhaps.. would be good if modelled.

[PFactorDave]

Realism must occaisionally take a back seat to fun game play.  Gun jams would suck on a fun game play level.

Just saying...

[Delirium]

Gun jams would suck on a fun game play level.

In an aircraft like the P51B, gun jams should be modeled because it happened so often historically during high-G.

Don't model rare events that happened to all aircraft, just what was well known for a specific type.

[HighTone]

#4 

[SgtPappy]

That's what I'm thinking Delirium. However, I took a look at what some veterans thought of their P-51B's because some of them liked the B better than the D.

"In fact, some of the mechanics in our group devised a system which would keep [the machine guns] feeding no matter how many G's you pulled." - Clayton Gross, P-51 pilot. Here's the film link: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5819506741442396778

You can find what they're talking about starting at 28:00 mins into the film; 28:50 when Gross talks about the guns mods. However, they don't say WHAT those mods were, and I've never heard of such mods. What did the mechanics do to the 51 guns?

[Race]

      Just to add to the original posters ideas....A high fidelity damage model would be nice in general. The current system is all or nothing save for a few things. Structural compents maintain 100% strength right up until the final .303 moves the damage counter past a certain point. In real life (just comparing here) a wing with a few whole resulted in increased drag and less lift. In turns the wing would tend to drop pronouced rate. Damaged control surfaces would be ineffective, marginal or may even stick. Some planes had reduntant systems that made them more surviable as well. A perfect example would be the Spitfire's split radiators with isolation valves. I would like to see gauges get shot out when your hit in the cockpit. The little things do it for me in the long run. Granted a lot of this stuff is available on other games but AH has got the competition covered in almost all aspects but graphics and the damage model.

More engine controls...optional for those who want the extra challenge while flying to and fro. Cooling flaps, mixture controls, magnetos, and a true start sequence would awesome. In truth the first two would go a long way. Give some extra HP to the guy who trims the air fuel mixture on the fly....not alot but enough to entice people.

High fidelity damage model....explained above.

True belted ammo....AP and HE...dont think we have it yet.

Better fuel load options....perhaps 10% increments on a tank per tank basis?

Perked ordnance options....a whole topic in itself.

Just a few I would like to see but who am I....

Race

[SectorNine50]

You know, I've actually been wanting a better fuel selection system for some time now, but I figured it was probably not something the community was interested in currently.  It seems most would like to see graphical enhancements and more planes currently than changed/upgraded features.  I'm not saying that condescendingly, just what I'm observing.

Having the 25, 50, 75, 100% system is okay by me, but it'd be nice to have a detailed option for us nuts who know what they want, and how they like their aircraft balanced.

Damage model update would be nice though, I'd still love to see pilot-less planes fall to the ground after the pilot suffers a fatal wound (note how aircraft you bail out of fall to the ground) rather than just that explosion.  Sometimes it's hard to decipher whether you hit a gas tank or the pilot, plus the visual addition would be excellent as well.  Imagine a dogfight where planes are losing wings, exploding, AND falling from the sky, just like in real life!

It's the little things for me as well Race...

[SmokinLoon]

Not a bad list at all.  I disagree with e few, but most of worthy of HTC's attention.  However, I doubt they'll pay much attention.  Tons of evidence of historical fact have been presented to them regarding errors of current aircraft or flight models and they turn a blind or ignorant eye.     

I think there are many more that could be added to that list as well.