Fed up with Super Buff Gunners

[Tac]

Probably will get flamed for this *sigh*

IMHO, HTC is wasting its efforts to create a realistic sim by putting superguns on the BUFFS.

If the buffs had .50's as guns, then they ARE .50's. PERIOD. Increasing their damage just so that a few whining buff pilots can solo in a bomber is incredibly dumb, as it spoils the realism of the game.

I have seen bombers go AFTER fighters now and WINNING. That ring a bell as to what the problem is here????

Either make the buff guns BE .50's or make all other .50's on all other fighters be as powerfull as the buffs (now aint that a stupid alternative? That's how dumb the super .50's on buffs are!).

If buff pilots want to solo, that's their decision. They would be wise to take a gunner along, but this bull of having a single bomber killing half a dozen fighters with little effort is absolutely ridiculous and NOT realistic.

3 b-17's in formation have more than enough firepower to ward off the attacking fighters at their normal alt.

Just give the buff gunners twice the ammo and be done with it.

[Azrael]

Well, not going to start anything here, but I experienced this a lot from the other side. Yesterday I was merrily flying along with swedish when a Spit attacked us. It was a good slicing attack, I heard two pings and looked at the tower screen, swedish lost 3 engines. The Spit died too, but he killed a buff and rendered another nearly unflyable.

I'm not fond of people who use buffs for base defense, but they are certainly not overmodelled. And to attack fighters successfully you'd have to get a gunner and risk your plane and the live of the crew on board. And how could a whatever how aggressive buff fight down a pair of fighters that's flying wing?

I'd suggest to take on your own advice and don't go up in a fighter solo. How sounds that?

Az
381st BG (H)
 

[RAM]

Azrael, Facts are Facts, Buff's MGs are overmodelled. I've been in the tail gun seat in a B17 and got 1.8K hits more than one time, more than 2 and more than 3 times.

Try to do that in a P51.

Ackstarring is the DWEEBEST thing since 35K buffing in AH and Spitfire HO dives.But at least a SpitIX could HO a plane 10K under him, and a B17 could bomb from 35K (well if the bombardier doesnt die frozen during the flight). But in WWII NO DAMNED B17 WAS USED LIKE SOME DWEEBS USE HERE!...

ANd scrambling in a B26 to hunt down P47s...lol that is a thing to laugh at or to yell at.

Like it or not, if here a B26 can turn with a Fw190A8 (and believe me IT TURNS with a Fw190A8 in a flat turn) and it has MGs able to hit up to 1.8K then sorry but something IS VERY WRONG HERE!!!!


Ah az, About the Spitfire killing one and rendering other useles...<Cough cough>...

Hispanos...

<Cough Cough>

 

[popeye]

I believe Pyro has said that 50's is 50's no matter what plane/vehicle they are in.

Easy to test.  Taxi a B-26 up to a field structure and blast away with the nose guns.  See how many rounds it takes to destroy the structure.   Repeat with P-38 (using only the  50's).  Just for fun, repeat with M-16.

popeye

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by popeye:
I believe Pyro has said that 50's is 50's no matter what plane/vehicle they are in.

I dont talk about ammount of damage I talk about accuracy.Buff guns are mortal up to 1.5K and very dangerous up to 1.8K. And the accuracy at short ranges for the gunners is simply incredible. If there was such accuracy in WWII then no LW pilot would have survived that kind of fire.

That means that buff MGs are OVERMODELLED. In damage maybe not. In accuracy for sure, yes.

[Yeager]

I have always been under the impression that guns on buffs are afforded a greater range for state of play.......the lethality per round is the same, just a longer range

Yeager

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[This message has been edited by Yeager (edited 07-21-2000).]

[popeye]

"The B-17G has 1992 kills and has been killed 2685 times."

popeye

[Toad]

It is an often discussed topic and just like the title of this forum, it is a gameplay issue.

The buff guns and the buff "hi-performance" are deliberate choices that they made to make flying buffs a viable choice for some players. If you had historically correct guns and aircraft performance, solo buffs would be "easy pickins" in the MA.

There are a lot of old posts on this situation. I am not agreeing with it or disagreeing with the position taken. Just pointing out that it was done for "playbalance". Those who have been around a while remember how easy it was to kill a buff at first. Then it got way hard, then it was changed again, etc. etc.

Playbalance. Too easy to kill = no buff drivers interested. Too hard to kill = no fighter pilots willing to engage and buffs rule.  It's an HTC judgement call.

Ram, once again I offer anyone the challenge to show me something (in the TA) that the <cough> Hispanos can do that the Mausers CAN NOT do in the air to air mode. Film required, hit flashes counted and the Mausers get 10% more flashes to compensate for their admitted RL lesser leathality.

In other words, if you can take off a buff wing with 10 rounds of Hispano, I bet you can take off the wing with 11 hits with a Mauser.

Now, on the tank thing, I agree. I wish HTC would explain the difference or investigate so we could put THAT issue to rest as well.

[Kieren]

I don't mind. I do think the endurance of the buffs have been upped, meaning it takes more to kill one. This past week the Rooks have made a routine habit of flying 35K buffs to Knight HQ and knocking it out. I have tried different a/c to counter the move (and I am not a newbie  ), and find that at that alt, let 'em go. They will tag you with the guns for sure, and you will need multiple passes to kill them- which are nigh impossible to make at that alt. In short, they will get you long before you get them.

It's all good, though. If the 3-5 dedicated "let's blind the Knights infinitum" guys are having fun, let them do it. I might even nuisance raid their HQ in return (in fact, already did  ). Radar is overrated anyway, and they'll soon grow bored making that long trek.  

Whew! Got off track! I think the buff endurance has gone up, not the lethality of their guns. You have to stay in their cone of fire too long to get a quick kill, and if the gunner is any good, you will lose vital parts in all but the most expertly effected attacks.

[Cobra]

 

Originally posted by popeye:
"The B-17G has 1992 kills and has been killed 2685 times."

popeye

That sums it up very nicely indeed.

Reminds me of the motto I live by in my profession....In God we trust, All others bring Data.

Cobra

(I hate it when facts cloud the issue)

[Replicant]

Hi

I fly a lot of buffs and like anyone who flies a particular plane a lot they get used to its good and bad bits.  In other words stick a newbie in a B17 and the chances are you'll get an easy kill.  Stick an experienced buff pilot in a B17 then it's going to be a hard kill.  I get more than my fair share of kills in the B26 but I would say that 90% are very poor approaches or VERY PREDICTABLE approaches - if you know what he's going to do then you can turn the tables!  Again, all pilots do this whether they fly a 109 or a B17.  The amount of planes I've shot that are right on your six is just unbelievable - but some do make it and they often get awarded the kill as the bomber will fall apart a lot quicker that a fighter.

If the attacking pilot takes his time then he'll kill the buff, some approaches are very, very difficult to defend from and if there is more than one plane attacking you then THEY must be pretty poor or inpatient if they don't down you (you can only target one plane from the turret, though I try to flick between them and put them off).

I would like to fly in formations but how often is that possible?

Another thing I have noticed or it just might be me is that the trajectory/convergence seems to change every major update.  Anyone else experienced that?

Regards

'Nexx'

[Pyro]

 

Originally posted by popeye:
I believe Pyro has said that 50's is 50's no matter what plane/vehicle they are in.popeye

Semi-correct Popeye.  There is no difference between the damage the bomber's .50s do and the fighters.  They both use the same gun.  However, the same cannot be said for vehicles.  Vehicles use the heavy barrel M2 instead of the aircraft M2.  This weapon has a lower rate of fire but uses a 45" barrel instead of the 36" barrel on the aircraft version.  This results in slightly higher muzzle velocity and striking power.



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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations

[SpyHawk]

All I can say, is I am a pretty decent pilot. But I can easily get 3-4 kills per mission in a B17. Not so often do I get that in a fighter (to say the least).

I do have a solution I would reccomend: Increase recoil dispersion from buff guns. Make it harder for them to maintain a water hose stream on the fighters. That's what I would like to do.

[CptTrips]

Pyro,

>There is no difference between the damage
>the bomber's .50s do and the fighters. They
>both use the same gun.


I seem to remember HT stating that the Buffs had a longer range on thier guns to compensate for lag when fighters are approaching their six.

I can accept this.  However, if this is true for all the guns, is it still fair when they are firing to the side, up, down, or to the front?  If the extra range is still in effect when firing at these other angles then the buffs enjoy a quite signifigant range advantage overall.

That may be justified for play balence, but its certainly something to think about.

Is the extra range only on the tail gun?

Regards,
Wab

[CavemanJ]

AKWabbit I hashed that one out with Pyro a long time ago.  Even invited him on as a gunner on me B17 at one point in the 'great .50 debate' one night in the arena.

The .50s all have the same MAX range (bullets disappear around 1.6-1.7k, or the tracers have burnt out or something).  The guns on the bombers have an extended max EFFECTIVE range, and this is to counter the netlag problem.  .50s on fighter are lethal out to 900yd-1k.  On the buffs out to 1.5-1.6k.  I have a film from just after the gravity bug was fixed where I took down another B17 from 1.4-1.5k (.50s should be lethal to 1600yds, there is a recorded kill at 1600yds using .50s).  Took damn near every round in my bird, but I got him.

With out that boost to max effective range a fighter could sit at d800 on his FE (d1.2 on B17's FE) and plink the bomber apart w/o fear of dying because netlag was keeping him outside the B17's guns effective range.