Fed up with Super Buff Gunners

[Tac]

Scenarios are a different thing. You get flights of fighters well coordinated and stuff to attack a wing of buffs neatly lined up, plus you only get one gunner (and thats if your lucky) to check all 720 degrees for you.  No matter what kind of scenario you run, if you get a formation of fighters to attack a formation of buffs, the fighters will get most of the buffs because you only have one gunner (and if!) and the fighters would very well attack at the same time and split up the targets between them.And in most cases the whole point of the scenario is to bomb/stop bombers. The MA does not have that (though it would be cool if it did!).

The problem I have with the ackstars now is not that they take off to defend.. its that their guns whack the cap out real quick with those guns it has. In fact, just tonight we were attacking a field and 3 17's took off one on top of the other. We got one before it started to shoot at us, and the remaining 2 just murdered the low alt cap.If I have to do several passes at an ackstar to get it down I will, but right now I just ram them because I know that no matter from what angle I attack it, that buff just needs to ping me once or twice and im gone. The Buffs in Air Warrior 3 are great in this sense (at least when I used to play it)... the guns weren't turbolaser equipped but they were still a menace if they got up.

[flakbait]

Again I can throw in a little experience of mine. I nailed a B-17 taking off a few days ago when I was parked near the runway in an M16. Took 500 rounds, most of them hits, to cause an air-burst. Nice pretty, and BIG, explosion when that B-17 went up. 500 rounds. Most of that ammo went in near the nose [on my FE anyway] with a few strikes on the port wing. Seems a bit excessive to me. 500 holes in the front-end of a B-17 should do something. Again I asked the guy what happened on his end. He told me "All I heard was pings, but I didn't see any damage on the report thingy". Netlag, bad connect, damage moden SNAFU, who knows. This seems to be the norm in here lately: You see 50 billion pings before BOOM, your target sees or hears only 4.


Flakbait

[Lephturn]

Guess what?  He died after four pings in that case.

You didn't SEE him explode for two seconds afterwards because of net lag.  So your 4th or 5th shot may have taken the pilot out and exploded the plane, but in the two second lag before you saw that happen, you poured 495 rounds into his already-dead ass.  

Nature of the beast on the Internet... you need to wait a few seconds before your damage registers with him, the host, and back to your FE.

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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs  http://www.flyingpigs.com


"My P-47 is a pretty good ship, she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip.
Just thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip, always got me through so far."
 - Steve Earl

[Tac]

Update: buff guns still do an unholy amount of damage  

I have attacked buffs from all angles (HO, hig HO, low HO, 1 oc, 11 oc, 3 oc ,9oc low and high), at near-compression speeds, and most of the times the attacks are disasters, as only one or 2 pings from the buff guns will break a fighter apart.

Forgive me Pyro, I do not want to question your word on the lethality of the guns, but I really see that a buff's .50's really tear up a fighter way more than a fighter's .50's tear up another fighter. A pony has to hit its target several times or with a long stream of hits to break up an opposing fighter from a 6 position or a HO (the face buffs shoot at almost all the times). a P-38 has to hit its target with 8-10 pings to bring another fighter down (and thats with a 20mm cannon)... yet a Buff does it in 2 or 3 pings  

A theory i've been thinking is that it might be some kind of convergence? A 50-cal fighter can kill another fighter in 2 or 3 ping if its at convergence (though a P-38 wont which is really odd, but that's another oddity I will bug you about later   ). It may not be convergence as in fighters, but I'm thinking that if the evil otto is aiming the other buff guns at the exact same point at which the human gunner is aiming... well, that would certainly give a buff's guns a terrific damage potential at any range!

Is there any way to test this by disabling the otto and seeing if the 2 .50's on a tail gun will break a plane apart with 2 or 3 pings as they do now? It would be really interesting!

oh.. and <PUNT> *grin*  

[BigJim]

HTC has already stated that the buffs guns have more "range" for lag and that is NOT the problem.  The problem is that the "adjustment" for lag is out of whack, if the disparity is 1.2 for the Buff to .8 for the fighter then make the effective range for the Buff 1.2 NOT 1.5 or greater.  I don't want an advantage I want a LEVEL playing field which was the "reason" I was told for the "adjustment"????  There are a couple of things that make me "red" in the game but as Pyro says if I can't take it then leave (sort of the nuclear reaction) so I guess I will have to decide when I can no longer stand the situation until then I will just take what I get and try to live with it
and not "squeak" too much

[Sparks]

I just read this thread and to me I don't understand the problem. Firstly looking at the arguement then the community seems pretty evenly split and so I say that simple logic determines that HT has got the balance about right.
Secondly I fly buffs a lot and the one thing that makes the difference is the quality of attack and thats it. If someone cruises up on my six or even better trys a belly shot then they are toast - it is just soooo easy to get the tracking and lead right and lay a garden path of lead for them to fly into. Durruti (sorry no disrespect intended) did another easy one - a flat curved approach to my eleven level - was able to track it perfectly and new he was going down before he started. On the other hand a high overhead dive is almost impossible to defend due to trying to track from the upper turret at high elevation - ask Kronos - he did 3 perfect ones on me yesterday and got me every time.
A good fighter pilot will down an average buff pilot/gunner every time and a good buff gunner will down and average pilot every time - sounds about right to me.

Sparks

[StSanta]

I flew buffs yesterday, and had a good time.

Ask Citabria if I was invicible. He approached from hi3 at very hi speed. I pinged him, might have done some damage but was killed in one pass.

The mission before that, me and Executor were trying for the first time to close a7 fh's. PC and Toad showed up hi and started making trouble. I managed to shoot down PC. Then the worthless .50's of Toads 51 blew me to pieces.

It is quite doable.

On the other hand, I attacked a buff in my a8; came in hi and fast and was never hit. However, it took three passes and almost all my ammo to down the buff, and I hit him good. First pas on left wing, second pass on left wing/centerpiece, last pass on right wing/centerpiece/left wing. First pass made two engines spew out fuel. Next pass black smoke. Third pass took out left wing.

They can take a lot of ordnance, that is for sure. And sometimes even a well executed high speed attack results in you being shot down.

To me, they're a little tough, but otherwise ok. Unless I am in them; then they're paper planes  

I usually manage to kill 2-3 fighters when I am buffing and attacked. Well, those fighter come in from bad angles. Attacks from hi and fast such as citabrias usually end up with me dead and the attacker losing some parts of his plane.



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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"

[GrinBird]

Bomber gunnery ruins the game. Its arcadish and stupid. Only thing that can make me drop main arena and my account. Phew! Now I have said it, and dont need to post more on this subject.

[Tac]

Guys, I too have shot down buffs with high speed attacks from hard angles for buff and killed them without a scratch. The problem is that in those attack the buff didnt fire at me OR missed all it shots. (I have it filmed too)

I KNOW that if it had pinged me once I wouldve broken apart. And that's the part I have this problem with believing. I still believe its the otto pointing all possible guns at the same exact spot that's causing this. I'm just asking Pyro if this could be tested.

[BigJim]

Sparks no offense but your statements are a load of Horse SH--. With the net lag the mini warps and all it is VERY tuff to get any kind of an "angle" shot on a good buff pilot.  I tried to attack one from the vertical last night, he jinked right, my Hog compressed and I lost a wing in the pass (the fact is that EVERYONE knows you can control the plane with rudder input from the Gunner position and it is an UNREAL ability)
Most buffs I kill either don't see me or have another fiter attacking them, if they see me I am toast if I press the attack PERIOD.

[Tac]

Heh, perhaps external views on buffs should go?   That may give a fighter a chance to sneak in. But then again, RL buffs had a gunner scanning all 720 degrees. I think the external view simulates the gunner's scanning the air for cons.

However, I do NOT think that all gunners can magically aim every possible gun at the exact same spot. Otto you raise your smelly head again!. Like I said in other post, In my opinion, otto gunners should fire in a random pattern in the general direction of where the human gunner is firing.

I say, a 10 degree cone of fire to the spot where the human gunner is aiming would do it quite nicely, that way the guns dont become the now-existing turbolasers when the plane does a close pass at a buff (gunners did blink, gulp,unconciously dodge the fighter that looks like its about to ram them).

[Sparks]

BigJim - no offense taken - I understand if you feel strongly about this. However so do I, and I think we'll have to agree to dis-agree on this one although I would be interested in doing some "live testing" in the TA or SEA if you fancied a spin sometime. I would be interested in getting Kronos along also and maybe some others who are good from both aspects - buff gunning and attacking - and see if we can change each others mind  .

[Replicant]

Disable external views in Buffs?  What a joke... does that mean we're going to have 7 players in a buff just to see around us, and then it would be even harder to attack a buff because you could deal with more than one fighter....  I don't think anyone wants to go that direction!

Okay, people say fly in formations if you want to make the guns weaker and have a better chance of survival.  Well, anymore than four buffs in formation and you DO get a lot of lag.  I've been downed at over 2k away by a fighter when in large formations.

Again, time and patience will always down the buff.  There are some attacks which I find VERY difficult to defend and I know that if I see a plane coming in from that direction then I know I am down unless he makes a fundamental mistake.  Mostly if I see a higher con then I always try and put him on my six and quite often they continue to come.  If they are coming in very fast then I will start shooting at about 1.8k.  If they are about the same speed and closing slowly then I'll start shooting at about 0.9k.  If the plane jinks a lot then he can get some good shots in, I had several good attacks on a B17 recently and I was impressed by their approach.  I was downed and that was direct on my six!  I'm glad not everyone has that skill!

Again, there are some planes that fall easier than others.  I always find shooting 109s the easiest because their wings come off so easy, but they can still pack a punch.  Spits are pretty easy to get too unless they're close where obviously the cannons do a lot of damage.  Mustang's are easyish to down, BUT get a Mustang, P47 or P38 coming in high and fast and bye bye buff.  I think the 205 is more effective than the 109.  I won't mention the F4UC because I have only killed about 2 of them in a buff - they always get you before you've even hit them, or seriously damaged them.  It's the only plane I really worry about apart from high cons that is.

Time and patience and as Sparks put, the quality of attack! I am sure that's what real pilots had.  I'll say again, about 95% of my kills of fighters in a buff are on my six.  That says a lot doesn't it?  (i.e. the last place I'd ever attack a buff is the six!).

Regards

'Nexx'