Answer These Questions About Attacking Buffs.

[RAM]

Just got killed by a buff at 1.1K from him.

2 pings at 1.2-1.3K engine gone.
2 more pings at 1.1K and wing gone

in Fw190A5

Now I need more proof?

Buffs are death stars

[Toad]

It's a playblance issue. Always has been. It gets tweaked, things are quiet for a while and then one side or the other starts yakking it up again.

I'm not smart enough to take this whole quiz and pass, so I just asked myself two questions

Toad, when you make a smart attack on a buff, like from high above with tons of E a curving approach and straight shooting, do you usually get him?  Yes, I do...but not always.

Toad, when you make a stupid approach, like slow and astern, does he usually slice your bellybutton into wafer-thin pieces and serve it to  you with a spicy horseradish sauce? Yes, he does! Almost always! How did you know?

We can tweak the "playbalance" again in favor of the attackers but then buff fliers will be hard to find and you'll have to read their sad stories in here instead of your own.

I thought a certain individual was just dying for his D9.  Where do you want them to spend the next 3 weeks? Playbalancing buffs or building more aircraft?

Sorry, but right now I personally don't feel "buff balance" is that big a problem. It doesn't really disrupt gameplay. We have other more important things for HTC to work on, don't we?

[RAM]

   

Originally posted by Toad:

I thought a certain individual was just dying for his D9.  Where do you want them to spend the next 3 weeks? Playbalancing buffs or building more aircraft?

LOL!!! you can say my name,no problem, man  
   

Sorry, but right now I personally don't feel "buff balance" is that big a problem. It doesn't really disrupt gameplay. We have other more important things for HTC to work on, don't we?

Who said is an urgent matter for me? for sure I didnt say it...

Look, I was asked some questions, and I answered them.But I had to read,after my answer, that buff guns arent that powerful nor accurate...

so I posted here what happened just as soon as it happened.

Its not a problem with me, Toad,As I said in my reply to Pyro, I learned to deal with it 3 TODs ago.I simply refuse attack them alone or with less than 5K of advantage. Punt.

And with 5K of advantages sometimes they kill me 1.1K away just as happened before. toejam happens. And no problems with me   .

Still, I dont like to read that Buff gunnery isn't turned up. Because IMO,and for what I have seen since I am here, IT IS. Dunno if damage, but accuracy ,fer sure IS turned up on buffs.

And when I have to read that it isnt, then I come here and say what I think.


[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 07-25-2000).]

[Aerotech]

  griz has 27 kills and has been killed 5 times in the Spitfire Mk IX against the B17G.

  griz has 11 kills and has been killed 3 times in the Spitfire Mk IX against the B26B.


I don't think the guns are too accurate. If anything the buffs need to be toughened up abit.


--------------------------------

griz
THUNDER BIRDS

[Sunchaser]

There are certain pilots here who can kill my bomber almost everytime I encounter them no matter the altitude which is never more than 27k and usually much lower.

These guys get me from almost directly above, the only guns they face are in the top turret and their closing speed make it hard to track them.

They are always very patient and calculating, in other words, they know their craft.

I think Bombers could be a bit tougher but I have landed many very damaged aircraft so they may be tough enough.

The guys who die from Bomber guns are those who just barrel in or those who are very good and plum out of luck that day.

In an online environment where death means nothing many rush to their virtual deaths and then, instead of asking themselves why they died, look for something or someone other than themselves to blame.

When I die in AH it is because I have no escorts or no gunner or I just flat out missed him or my head is elsewhere and I get jumped.

Whose fault? Must be Rams.

In lieu of those smiley things I will say, "just kidding Ram"

It is mine for not gathering the materials to survive the mission.

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When did they put this thing in here and WTF is it for?

[Downtown]

I don't have film of a specific attack, but I have tried to make what from my reading are historical attacks against B-17s.  Here is usually what I try to do and the result.

I will see a buff so I start climbing.  I will try and keep the bomber within icon range (less than 9K) while I am climbing I make every effort to stay three k or better away.  On several occasions I have had B-17s or B-26s dive on me when they turn toward me.  Usually because I was climbing one of the guns will ping me and take an engine or wing or the vators.  Lets say that this didn't happen, and I reach coalt with the buff.  I generally turn away from the buff then and start climbing again, but I will adjust my climb speed so that I have more airspeed.  I do this incase the buff runs, I will be able to maintain altitude and still get above the buff.  Lets say the buff doesn't flat turn toward me at co-alt or S turn so he has me bracketed by his rear gun, which has happened.  I am slow and climbing and the Buff has his level speed, and can turn better than the fighters I am flying (P-47-30 mostly lately which I thought was supposed to excell above 25K, it doesn't for me) any kind of semi vilolent manuver I.E. turning sharply to avoid and agressive bomber will cause a stall that cost me 5K of precious altitude.  But lets pretend that this doesn't happen and I end up in a situation where I am above the bomber.  Now I turn toward the bomber trying to get in postion to attack.  As I have stated before I try to get 1600 to 1400 yards above and off to the 9-11 or 1-3 postion.  Quite often I have been shot down trying to get ahead of a bomber in this aspect.  Many times at rangers greater than 1400 yards.  Now I know that you are saying "Don't fly straight and level Downtown" and I hear you.  As I have stated manuvering to avoid the guns cost the speed I am trying to use to get ahead of the bomber and often causes stalls that cost me altitude and speed and often set me up for the guns.  But again lets pretend that this doesn't happen and I get ahead of the buff.  So now I am about 3K ahead and 1400 to 1600 yards above the buff and I make the turn to head toward the buff when I get to about 2500 yards I nose down to make an attack run. When I am about 1400 yards I am approaching 300 to 350 IAS I have checked on some passes and seen 400 to 450 IAS as I pass under the bomber.

I have been shot down on the way in and the way out.

I recall a few occasions where I have come almost vertical into a B-17 and had them explode before I crash into them and come out supprised that I survived and didn't hit wreckage.  More often than not I will see sprites and the bomber will get a fuel leak, or a oil leak.  Most of the time, I am in no shape for a 2nd pass, but lets pretend I am.

I will use my speed to extend and climb up and away from the bomber.  I will make the turn and attempt to catch the bomber.  I don't think I have ever been able to get in postion for a 2nd pass so I am unable to speculate.  Many times when I try to catch the buff on a 2nd Pass as I am closing a few rounds will smoke the engine or take a wing.  If I have any alt or speed I can sometimes dive into a buffs six and in a MAD (Mututally assured destruction) situation we both get shot down, then its the first to crash Usually me) or the first to hit the silk.

I don't understand why I can turn with fighters at lower altitude in the P-47D-30 and when I am above 25K the plane will stall with the slightest manuver.  The planes climb slower above 25K, turn bad above 25k and loose speed above 25k.  All altitudes and speed a P-47 is supposed to excell at.

I was at 27K the other day and come across a spit 9.  I called on radio two, can a P-47 take a spit at 27K.  "Oh Yeah" is the response I get, the P-47 is killer above 25K.  Well I could run away and the spit couldn't catch me, but I couldn't touch him either.  He finally broke off so I used the P-47s superior dive speed to catch him.  he turned, caught me at the lower altitude and smoked me.

I must be doing something very wrong, but I do not understand what (well I know turning with a spit in a jug low is a dumb thing) but I thought I should have had him (and I worked to keep that fight above 25k) at alt.  He could out turn and out climb me at alt, he had much better E retention at 25K than I did.  I only had him at flat turns (he avoided) and initial acceleration and flat speed above that alt.  I couldn't out turn or out climb him.

Is the 2nd Stage of the Supercharger not modeled in the P-47D-30 in AH?

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"Downtown" Lincoln Brown.
    lkbrown1@tir.com    
 http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1
Wrecking Crews "Drag and Die Guy"
Hals und beinbruch!

[Pongo]

All sounds good DT, but you need to give yourself more space to gain speed for your run.  Keep your patiance till you are 4 k above him. At that point you can do to him what he was doing to you. Your position is going to make him pick a new course or give you a good shot. Try to get him to change course and follow him into the turn from an outside angle. ie his high 4 oclock.
If it is falling apart or does not look right break off at 2 k and climb again.
Try to hit his wingtip. Its a hard shot but all it takes is a medium burst from a single gun 20mm armed 109 to kill a buff if you hit.
Its one of the only critical hits that you can call in the game. It will work every time.

Obviosly such a position is hard to attain against a stratosdweeb. But the same would be true of any armed plane that had taken the time to get up there. But you would not think of chasing a p47 that was at 35k by yourself.
If he turns back from your base, chock that one up as a kill. You did your part.
Yes its hard, no its not terribly realisic. But it is a blast. Real dangorous every time.
>

[Cobra]

Pongo nailed it!

Cobra

[Maniac]

1. What is the furthest range you have been shot down by B-17s Defensive Guns?

D1.5 i think.

2. What is the most number of attacking passes you have made on a lone B-17?

I usually dont do more then 2 passes before either i or the b-17 are dead

3. Have you ever been attacked by a bomber?

YES, Been chased by em lol!

4. Discounting six attacks on B-17 what is your standard attack?

High attack from above, its an nice big fat target from above.

5. Have you ever been shot down in one good pass against a Bomber (High Angle head on or 10 o'clock attack?)

Yes

6. Would you prefer if buffs could survive multiple passes by fighters?

I wouldnt mind, aslong as the fighter can survive equal numbers of passes  

7. Do you feel bombers are too manuverable?

No.

8. What change would you make so that people would still fly bombers, yet historical attacks against bombers met with more success.

Force people to fly escorts?

9. Do you feel that fighters are disadvantage against bombers above 25k?

I dont see many bombers above 20k...

10. What do you feel is the best tactic in attacking a bomber?

For me its the High attack from above straight down...

11. Have you ever been shot down by a bomber when you felt that you had the bomber at an extreme disavantage? (I.E. Were above and well off to the side and been brought down at 1400 yards or greater)

Yes.

12. Be fair, what compromise would be acceptable to Buff Pilots and Fighter Pilots?

I dont undersand why buffs should have better guns then the fighters w the same armament....

Regards.




------------------
AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-


   
http://www.rsaf.org/osf/

[bloom25]

I have no problems with the bombers the way they are.  (IMO best they have ever been.)  I nearly exclusively fly only the p51 and p47 as fighters now.  I have no problems at all killing bombers if it is done correctly.

First the stats:

Tour 5:
bloom25 has 4 kills and has been killed 0 times in the P-51D against the B-17G.

bloom25 has 1 kill and has been killed 1 time in the P-51D against the B-26B.

bloom25 has 2 kills and has been killed 0 times in the P-47D-30 against the B-17G.

bloom25 has 4 kills and has been killed 0 times in the P-47D-30 against the B-26B.

Tour 6:

bloom25 has 4 kills and has been killed 0 times in the P-51D against the B-17G.

bloom25 has 1 kill and has been killed 1 time in the P-51D against the B-26B.

bloom25 has 2 kills and has been killed 0 times in the P-47D-30 against the B-17G.

(No p47 vs b26 kills this tour.)

Also note that both times I died versus the bombers I managed to bring them down as well.
(P51 and P47 DO NOT have cannon, and thus should be the hardest planes to kill bombers in.   )

The trick is the method.  Here are a few films.

killb26.ahf poorpass.ahf p47bomber.ahf p51vb17.ahf p51vb172.ahf

I have many more like this, but these are the smallest files.  (Between 78k and 160k each.)  Note that even though in 2 films I make minor mistakes the bomber still dies.  The only damage I receive TOTAL is a busted radiator, which I land without incident.  Also note that the bomber pilots are not newbies (one is Wardog), but still only a single pass is required.

The secret is to aim for the rudder, roll, then target the wingtip.  DO NOT engage a b17 in any other manner.  B26s can also be killed from below rather safely.

Tactics are the key to success.

 


------------------
bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS

[Maverick]

 

Originally posted by Downtown:
1. What is the furthest range you have been shot down by B-17s Defensive Guns?

D1.4 and several lateral (off to side hits at 1.6 and 1.2. Anymore I try to stay at least 3k off side. The longer hits had reductions in range later in burst as buff turned too engage me. When I turned I, of course, presented him with a bigger planform target when wing went up.

2. What is the most number of attacking passes you have made on a lone B-17?

Only 2 and that was on a low alt buff. I am often too agressive in my attacks and have NO real confidence in 6 50 cals on a B17 unless I am well inside of 300 yards. I have NEVER gotten multiple passes on high alt (25+k alt) buff. There is a long delay to climb and I usually am leaking a few things like pistons, oil, blood etc.

3. Have you ever been attacked by a bomber?

LOTS at altitude. The buff has a significant maneuver advantage at alt than does the 51. I find the pony staggers rather than flies above 25k. At 30k a gentle (less than 30 degree bank, or "standard rate" turn in real life pilot talk) turn results in stall almost immediately with definate loss of alt. I have had a 17 (25K alt) out turn my pony several times and blow any chance of prosecuting the attack. It was also a gunned buff as it would turn AND fire simultaneously. The gunner and pilot could then co ordinate the maneuvers at the optimal time to screw me up!  

4. Discounting six attacks on B-17 what is your standard attack?

B17, get above if at all possible and dive from almost directly overhead. (Not likely in a 30k buff) Use angle such as a 90 degree side if coalt. On a low alt buff from above almost always and from a front quarter attack turning and grabbing (if I survive) to get ahead and above again. Try anything but a single angle atack. Try to make the gunner shift aim and constantly adjust lead to hit me.

5. Have you ever been shot down in one good pass against a Bomber (High Angle head on or 10 o'clock attack?)
 
Too many to count but I been using pony most of time and 50's act like 30's on buff.

6. Would you prefer if buffs could survive multiple passes by fighters?

They pretty much do now on a 1v1 attack, especially if they are high.

7. Do you feel bombers are too manuverable?

At alt, absolutely. A fully up loaded B17 should just stagger around sky at 30k. It should be slow, prone to stalls and easy to break up if manuevered abruptly at 28+k alt. The fully loaded 17 was a very slow beast to climb out of England. A 250 fpm climb was the norm. It would make for a VERY slow buff mission if it were that way at sea level now in game. To maneuver more than just a standard rate bank or alt. jink a buff should have to salvo it's load.

8. What change would you make so that people would still fly bombers, yet historical attacks against bombers met with more success.

Drop high alt bombing accuracy as it is modeled in game. High alt saturation bombing is fine in a major raid box. Pin point accuracy in this game is a fact, not a fluke. If buffs couldn't hit targets at 30k, as a matter of course, they wouldn't waste the time to get there. Hitting a single building reliably and regularly at 30k is a stretch in realism. I know it makes the buff game playable but it ain't real.

9. Do you feel that fighters are disadvantage against bombers above 25k?

Absolutely. I feel the premier Allied high alt fighter doesn't cut it in the game. My pony experiance is that it is very difficult to keep at alt (25K+) if I do ANY maneuvering at all.

10. What do you feel is the best tactic in attacking a bomber?

On a 1 v 1 status, at high alt, leave it be. If buff is escorted at alt, leave it be. If multiple buffs at alt, leave them alone.

If buff lower than 20k, have multiple fighters engage it from several angles. Only one fighter can be engaged by buff at a time. If it is you he is targeting, then kiss it off and try to evade but, keep drawing fire from your buddies attacks.

Alone against a lower buff, get lots alt and speed, use sharp angle diving attack. Hit B26 from high speed below.

11. Have you ever been shot down by a bomber when you felt that you had the bomber at an extreme disavantage? (I.E. Were above and well off to the side and been brought down at 1400 yards or greater)

Yep while climbing to it and didn't see him fire until rounds went past. Didn't expect him to turn into me and was cought flat footed.

12. Be fair, what compromise would be acceptable to Buff Pilots and Fighter Pilots?

Main items are to reduce HIGH alt performance for a LOADED buff & sharply diminish HIGH alt bombing accuracy. Buff guns are higher punch and buff is tough to hurt. I got no problem with that as most are flown by single player and to move from gun to gun is a definate disadvantage. I appreciate that HTC set multiple guns firing in buff as all guns that can fire at a target do fire from just one player in position. Makes buffs tougher to do in but they did have more than one gunner and buff in mission in RL as a rule.  
==-==================================

I personally would prefer the ability to make 3 or 4 passes at a bomber, than to kill it in one pass.  Right now I feel that you can't make that many passes.

Right now I feel that fighters whose historic roll was to attack bombers at altitude are at an extreme disadvantage because they cannot manuver at 25, 30, or 35K with a bomber.  If you are fortunate enough to get above a bomber and make a high speed diving attack you have difficulty climbing back up and turning for a 2nd pass.  I know that the P-47 is supposed to have improved performance at 25K and above, yet I have been trounced by B-17s and B-26s at that altitude and above.  I can't catch them, and If I get above and ahead and I get lucky enough to turn at them, I will only get one pass.

Right now I feel that the increased range of the bombers guns, the manuverablity that seems unhampered at any altitude, and the poor performance of the fighters that high altitudes tilts the scale too far in favor of the buff.  I would like to see a decrease in either the range of the bombers guns or their manuverability brought more inline.  I would agree to an increase in bomber hardness also.

Maybe you have more comments, or questions, but I believe that bombers have too great an advantage.  We need to allow some advantage so that people will fly bombers, but not to the fact that bomber pilots attack fighters and return with multiple kills.  If a bomber is engaged with a fighter I want the bomber to have a reasonable chance to survive.  I want fighters to be able to manuver to make an attack.

[Rickenbacker]

1. About 500m (no really  ).
2. 2.
3. Yes, B26'es and dweeby AA-17's.
4. High front quarter attack, followed by a rolling zoom climb.
5. Yes, pilot kill from a B26 nose gunner.
6. They can, at least when I'm making them  .
7. No.
8. None, what we have now is a decent compromise, IMHO.
9. Only if you attack from low 6 or something equally stupid (not saying I don't, but I think it's fair that I die when I do).
10. Coordinated attacks by 2 or more planes, preferably one drawing long range fire while the other one sneaks in for the kill.
11. No.
12. I think what we have now is pretty acceptable.

I did manage to shoot down 3 lone B-17's at 15K the other night, as they were strung out about 5K apart. If they'd been in close formation I'd have been dead (as it was I had to bail due to wing damage after the last kill). This was in a P-51, so I don't think bombers are overmodelled  .

Rickenbacker

[gatt]

1. Up to 1,300yds (it depends on net lag)
2. 2-3
3. Yes, by B26s
4. Up-down (90deg AoA) or down-up vertical zooms firing in the soft belly. Unhistorical? Yes, indeed
5. Yes
6. Yes, I'm sure real buffs survived multiple attacks
7. Yes
8. Dangerous question
9. Yes
10. A double attack by a pair. Distract the gunner and gun his brain out
11. Sometimes, but I can be wrong here.
12. Again, I dont have the answer. Tune down buff's strenght and/or gun lethality and you wont probably see any of them around. This is the price we have to pay to see those ugly birds. But thats just my opinion.

[Ripsnort]

 

Originally posted by RAM:
Just got killed by a buff at 1.1K from him.

2 pings at 1.2-1.3K engine gone.
2 more pings at 1.1K and wing gone

in Fw190A5

Now I need more proof?

Buffs are death stars

Ram, your 41 and 10 vs B17 in 3 tours, a 4.1 to 1 K/D ratio, me thinks you just made your attack approach alittle too agressive.