Russian SU-30 MK video

[MORAY37]

The bottom line in the debate....

For every weapon system there is a countermeasure.  You just have to hope your enemy hasn't found it.  

Also, BVR capability is only as good as your ROE.  In a congested theater,  you aren't going to start throwing out AMRAAMS just because the dot isn't throwin back the right squawk on the IFF.  This means you're getting in tight.

The F22 is a great platform.  It is not invincible, though.  Gripens have outfought them in exercises, up close, and late model F18's  have tracked them in close ACM. Ankle humping the F22 will only get you so far.  As soon as the first pics of the plane got out, there are people out there coming up with ways to defeat it.  

As well,  one might consider that a small number of technically superior armaments does not assure victory.   Case in point, Germany, WW2. Overwhelmingly superior in both training and quality of arms for most, if not all of the war.  But,  Germany could not witstand a war of attrition, and superior general staff of the Allies....which ultimately led to the downfall of the Reich.

 

[macerxgp]

The bottom line in the debate....

For every weapon system there is a countermeasure.  You just have to hope your enemy hasn't found it.  

Also, BVR capability is only as good as your ROE.  In a congested theater,  you aren't going to start throwing out AMRAAMS just because the dot isn't throwin back the right squawk on the IFF.  This means you're getting in tight.

The F22 is a great platform.  It is not invincible, though.  Gripens have outfought them in exercises, up close, and late model F18's  have tracked them in close ACM. Ankle humping the F22 will only get you so far.  As soon as the first pics of the plane got out, there are people out there coming up with ways to defeat it.  

As well,  one might consider that a small number of technically superior armaments does not assure victory.   Case in point, Germany, WW2. Overwhelmingly superior in both training and quality of arms for most, if not all of the war.  But,  Germany could not witstand a war of attrition, and superior general staff of the Allies....which ultimately led to the downfall of the Reich.

 

Yes, but we can. And the German's didn't have stealth (working on it) or A2A missiles (working on those, too).

[Race]

And I'm quite sure training makes sure that a Raptor pilot never goes belly-up at a hostile plane.

Also, AWACS operates (If I can recall) at ranges outside normal engagement ranges, and if I remember, the US could cover most of Iraq with a single AWACS. Also, the F-22's radar is DESIGNED IN A WAY TO MAKE IT SO THAT EVEN IF YOU LOCK THEM UP AND SHOOT AN AMRAAM AT THEM THEY WON'T BE ANY THE WISER. (It was already said earlier in the thread, man.) The F-22 is meant as a ho machine, meaning point it in the general direction of enemy, aircraft lock 'em up on radar, fire missiles, and get out.

I'm tired of debating the effectiveness of the F-22 in ways it is not designed to engage enemy fighters, and situations which are impossible under it's electronics package. (I.E., use of the radar betraying it's position. The F-22's radar simply won't do it. It's designed specifically NOT TO.)

First your counting on the fact that you even know where that plane is....AWAC's have an area of coverage, if I am not mistaken which I might be, of 150 mile radius? Even a 300 mile radius is only slightly bigger than most of the western states in America. So with that in mind you cant cover a country with a single AWACs and still maintain effective stand off. In the opening hours of a war AWAC's wont even be available for most of the hostile territory. Any radar emission is like a spot light in the dark of night. If your in the cone of emmisions you can see them. This includes the F-22 or any plane for that matter....I will say it again clearly.....ANY radar emited can be picked up by threat warning systems. Stealth is only good if your driving without your headlights on so to speak. Turn the radar on and you are clearly visible.....radiation is radiation regardless of the plane.

Race

[Dream Child]

For them, at least. We don't have to worry about it, because they don't have F-22's!

Now, to solve most of the questions that have been posed....

BVR Target entering VR:     How the hell'd he make it into VR in the first place!? Assuming he simply hugged the deck to avoid radar (desperately hard vs an F-22, seeing as with the F-22's radar resolution you'd be dodging some MAJOR tree-ack), he'd be picked up in an instant.

Umm...in a word, no. The F-22 uses passive radar. Part of being stealthy is not making noise. Active radar can be picked up at twice the range as the sender can see a target. Passive radar only listens, so if the enemy aircraft doesn't have active radar, and it's electronics are shielded, the F-22 won't see it until it's in visual range.

The F-22 has all-aspect radar, and can detect targets all around it. And forget missing one, nobody else had stealth aircraft. And locking up a target in a dogfight hard?! Hardly. Don't forget, most modern U.S. fighters can lock up and launch a missile at a target up to 45 degrees off boresight, using the helmet-tracking weapons control system (name escapes me) first used in the Su-27, F-16 and F/A-18 IIRC. Modern U.S. heatseeking missiles are fairly simple to lock onto a bandit in a dogfight, especially the new AIM-9X sidewinder missile. With improved all-aspect capabilities, coupled with a vectored thrust nozzle, it's almost impossible to out-maneuver. 'Almost', meaning there is still room for a MiG to make a lucky move and confuse the missile. And we still have a 20mm gatling just in case.

The Sidewinders are short (way inside visual) range missiles. To use longer range missile requires the use of radar, but to do that requires a noise source, so it can't come from the "stealth" aircraft, or it won't be stealth. The SU-30 shown in the video has vectored thrust also, so to pretend it's not a threat is naive.

That still leaves the question of how that damn fighter got passed the F-22's (and AWACS, no less!) radar in the first place. It seems that all the responses championing VR combat and guns-hot dogfighting are based on an assumption that, somehow, all of the BVR sensors on every single F-22 in the combat group have failed simultaneously, leaving none of the BVR weapons on the F-22's as viable weapons. Seeing as with how advanced the systems on the F-22 actually are (declassified and implied statistics don't even hint at what this bird is actually capable of), it's hard to believe that any adversary will survive an engagement past 30 seconds after radar acquisition on the F-22's due to their compliment of AMRAAMS plus their unbelievable radars. And even if you base your statements off of experiences in the Gulf War, keep in mind that we have gone through dozens of electronics upgrades since then, almost eliminating the malfunctions we saw there.

Until Sukhoi or Mikoyan come up with a stealth fighter of their own, we won't have any issues with hitting planes at BVR anymore.

Again, the F-22 doesn't use active radar. It doesn't look, it only listens, or else it won't be stealth. If the enemy plane isn't emitting enough noise for the F-22 to hear, it won't hear it. It's a catch-22. A plane like the F-15 has a great radar, so the pilot uses it to find the enemy planes. The F-22 is trying to be stealthy, so it only listens for other aircrafts radar. If the other aircraft stops emitting electronic noise, then the F-22 can't find it, and it becomes an electronic stalemate. Again, this assumes there are no other information sources available to either aircraft.

[Nilsen]

I get bad vibes from the level of weapons technology that we are achieving now and in the near future.  If a warrior is separated from the blood & guts too much, he will forget what war really is.

Yup and the more superior one side gets, the more you will see "dirty" fighting by the other simply because they run out of options. And not fighting at all is not an option for some of our enemies. You just move warfare to another level when you run out of ways to pose a threat to the other side.

You may not want balance, but you dont want to go too far in terms of dominating conventional warfare either.

[Gwjr2]

I would love to know how stealthy the F/A-22 really is, but I doubt I will find out any time soon.

psssst its behind you now   

[Kazaa]

F/A-22 discussions are epic fail. 

[MORAY37]

Yes, but we can. And the German's didn't have stealth (working on it) or A2A missiles (working on those, too).

Stealth, applied to fighter aircraft, has become massively over-rated.  Until you can make a weapons system invisible visually, as well as electronically, there will always be ways to defeat it. Take for instance, hiding in ground clutter.  If the enemy places fighters along attack routes, and hides in the dirt, waiting to pop up and engage close, all the stealth in the world won't help you.  The human eyeball with a little light, generally defeats any electronic stealth 100% of the time.  I know this because at a distance of 7-10 miles, I can see an F22, B2 or F117 easily. This is true especially in a high concentration arena where visually ID'ing a target will be required prior to engaging it.  Obviously, this is also why most stealth aircraft fly at night.

Stealth, as of now, is useful mostly in interdiction and ground attack missions where you know the precise location of what you're attempting to destroy.  To say otherwise implies lack of overall knowledge of the realities of air combat.  ROE's exist to ensure that blue on blue kills don't occur for any reason or due to any malfunction of IFF systems onboard other craft.  That unknown con racing out from hostile territory and not broadcasting IFF squawks or data link, could be a damaged friendly just limping home.

Of course, in a known arena, where you have exact information (I have 5 F22's and there are 10 Mig-29's ID'd at 22 miles... so, here go the AMRAAMS) stealth would play a large factor in the outcome.  This sanitized, clean OP area just will not exist in any rapidly changing theater of operations.  This will be true especially in theaters where air superiority is either up for grabs, or has been absolutely attained by friendly power.  BVR tactics will not be utilized for fear of blue on blue casualties in such "dirty" theaters.

[macerxgp]

I seem to recall someone stating the F-22A has only 'passive' radar.... Apparantly, he/she/it didn't do his/her/its research very well. The F-22A uses the Northrop Grumman AN/APG-77 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar. The AN/APG-77 has both long-range target acquisition and low probability of interception of its own signals by enemy aircraft. Which means it's not passive. And no, that MiG-29M over there isn't likely going to have it's radar warning alarm tripped until the missile is already on it's way. Therefore; even if the MiG/Su/Typhoon/RV8 is running radar-cold, the F-22A will pick it up and kill it.

Moral of the story is the F-22A, no matter what, is gonna be hard as hell to take down.

[Dream Child]

I seem to recall someone stating the F-22A has only 'passive' radar.... Apparantly, he/she/it didn't do his/her/its research very well. The F-22A uses the Northrop Grumman AN/APG-77 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar. The AN/APG-77 has both long-range target acquisition and low probability of interception of its own signals by enemy aircraft. Which means it's not passive. And no, that MiG-29M over there isn't likely going to have it's radar warning alarm tripped until the missile is already on it's way. Therefore; even if the MiG/Su/Typhoon/RV8 is running radar-cold, the F-22A will pick it up and kill it.

Moral of the story is the F-22A, no matter what, is gonna be hard as hell to take down.

That was me. I didn't realise how un-stealthy the F-22 really was. If you make noise, you can be found, simple as that. It's the same reason military submarines don't use active sonar, even though they have them.

[macerxgp]

That was me. I didn't realise how un-stealthy the F-22 really was. If you make noise, you can be found, simple as that. It's the same reason military submarines don't use active sonar, even though they have them.

No, the F-22A is very stealthy. It's RCS is the size of a pea. And making the assumption that sonar is in any way comparable to radar is simply not true. You can't make a 'phased-array sonar'. You can do that with radar, which makes the F-22A (and all other aircraft equipped with AESA radar) able to avoid detection. The AN/APG-77 has, as I said before, LPI, low probability of intercept properties. Phased array radars are especially difficult to detect, because they do not have physically deflecting modules. Phased arrays use solid state transceivers, which have traverse speeds in the 10's of nanoseconds.


So yes, the F-22A is VERY stealthy.

[Buzzard7]

If the Raptor RCS is the size of a pea then your gonna have to hit it with your radar while its next to you.
Bombers will show up on radar before fighters will. Not sure how accurate F4AF models the AN/APG-68 but you will not see fighters until they are within 80 miles. Bombers and large aircraft can be picked up out to 120 miles or so. Neither of them can be locked up at those distances.

[macerxgp]

That's exactly right. And even with that range, you'd be ditching radar ENTIRELY for the infra-red IRST ball on your nose.

That is, if you GET that close. As I have proven, the F-22 has ACTIVE radar with LPI properties. Any Sukhoi in range is toast.

[humble]

From what i've read here there seems to be some very significant assumptions specific to the F-22. While it is mission capable as a "dog fighter" if/when its ever deployed in combat any dogfighting would be a failure in tasking. The F-22 is designed as a stand off weapons platform. Obviously details arent available at a public access level but the reality is that anything attempting to engage  the F-22 wont know ones around till after its dead....period. The F-22 by doctrine will not ever engage at visual range or even within the bounds of an enemy's detection capabilities. It's designed for sub 20 min turn around time and capable of sustained sortie rates far beyond any plane in service anywhere. It is a whole different animal...I'd agree the Su-30 can probably out fly it at an air show...but pretty doesn't equal lethal.

[macerxgp]

That's exactly true. And, if the plane that ends up succeeding in getting into visual range doesn't have thrust vectoring..... You can guarantee they'll get their bellybutton handed to them on an aluminum alloy platter. F-22 isn't the most maneuverable bird out there. But in the vertical, that baby can pull some serious pitch maneuvers. Think the opposite of the 190. Not perfect on the roll, but the damn thing can nose up like a 109 on a damn Saturn-V.