Author Topic: New computer or should I wait?  (Read 1826 times)

Offline eagl

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Re: New computer or should I wait?
« Reply #45 on: December 08, 2008, 09:38:13 AM »
BTW you might actually be better off on that 15A circuit with a newer PSU.  The older ones toss away over 20% of the power drawn from the wall (discarded as heat), while the newest ones can be over 85% efficient so they waste 15% or less.  That means for the same computer configuration, you're pulling 5% or so less power from the wall.
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Offline Delirium

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Re: New computer or should I wait?
« Reply #46 on: December 08, 2008, 09:56:45 AM »
A 650W psu wouldn't immediately strike me as being the problem since your total power load is probably somewhere under 350W at full load. 

I'd personally wait for the vid card RMA.  If the second card does the same thing, get a good PSU. 

Well, thinking about it, I'm going to need a power supply for my new machine anyway. Wife is basically giving me a blank check and if I get a couple peices now it will soften the blow later when I purchase the MB/CPU.

What do you think about this PSU?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817703003

It isn't modular, but it seems to be a sturdy unit with a good backing. I think it may be too much for the circuit tho, but like I said, electricty isn't my forte.

« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 09:58:48 AM by Delirium »
Delirium
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Offline Delirium

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Re: New computer or should I wait?
« Reply #47 on: December 08, 2008, 10:01:50 AM »
Maybe this PSU would be a better unit, less draw from the wall, should be able to power the card easily enough (not sure about SLI tho) and it is alot cheaper.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817703009
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Offline Fulmar

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Re: New computer or should I wait?
« Reply #48 on: December 08, 2008, 12:47:53 PM »
I thought I read the PC&C PSU's didn't like modular because they believed it was another possible spot for connection problems and they preferred to use non-modular designs.  I can see their point about it, however, I've never seen PSU problems develop at that connection point.  I enjoy my modular cabling as I don't have to have more that what I need running in the case.
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Offline TilDeath

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Re: New computer or should I wait?
« Reply #49 on: December 08, 2008, 02:33:27 PM »
I thought I read the PC&C PSU's didn't like modular because they believed it was another possible spot for connection problems and they preferred to use non-modular designs.  I can see their point about it, however, I've never seen PSU problems develop at that connection point.  I enjoy my modular cabling as I don't have to have more that what I need running in the case.
Agreed!  PC&C is owned and made by OCZ some of the best memory out there.  I have spoke with their Sr techs and most of them dont use the Single rail systems.  The nice thing about single rails is you have all the amps available for that rail in one place.  The disadvantage to a single rail system is overloads, noise and if a PSU failure happens you could lose your whole system and not just a GPU, CPU, Memory, HD etc but all of it.

A power supply is just as your house's fuse box includes both a large main breaker and a smaller circuit breaker per circuit to ensure the smaller branch circuit wires do not overheat, high-capacity PSUs divide their output into multiple "rails" each with a smaller current limit. The relevant safety standard requires a 20A limit (which a lot of manufactures ignore esp PC&C, they have enough amps on a single rail to kill ya), which is quite generous, given that the wires are smaller than those used in your house to carry 15A. (But there is the advantage that the wires aren't hidden in walls, so they're cooled better and you'll smell it if something starts burning.) This, however, makes connecting the PSU more complex; in addition to not overloading it overall, you have to avoid overloading each rail or it will shut down. A good power supply will make that easy by providing rails totalling much more than the total PSU rating. A cheaper alternative is to provide just enough rails to total the overall capacity, which makes it difficult to use all of a power supply's capacity. (This may be a clue that the PSU is incapable of delivering its full rated capacity.) An even cheaper alternative, which has become quite popular, is to eliminate all of the safety circuitry and produce a "single-rail" power supply which can deliver all of its output on any wire. This is technically in violation of the ATX power supply specification but has not proved to be a safety problem in practice, and is preferred by many people. A single-rail design is not itself a sign of a low-quality PSU.

Get a modular PSU if possible, as it will help eliminate extra wires to get in the way of cooling. Ignore the claims by PC Power & Cooling that modular cables create more resistance due to corrosion of contacts. The additional resistance is negligible.

A single 12 volt rail PSU just has one output circuit which generates 12 volts. All the various connectors which supply 12 volts are hooked to that one output. This kind of PSU will work just fine with a modern computer as long as it can deliver the wattage. That's true even if the motherboard requires the extra 4 pin or 8 pin 12 volt CPU connector or if your video card requires the 6 pin PCI-Express connector. As long as your single 12 volt rail PSU has all of those extra connectors and sufficient wattage then things will work properly.

Multiple independent 12 volt rails PSU

A multiple independent 12 volt rails PSU has more than one 12 volt rail. Each of the 12 volt rails has its own separate circuitry. Each of the 12 volt power connectors on the PSU cables is hooked up to one of the 12 volt rails. Since this is merely a PC PSU rather than a "real" one, the manufacturers often don't feel obligated to tell you which connector is hooked to which rail.

One reason to have multiple separate 12 volt rails is to improve the load regulation and noise on the rail. When you connect an active load to a voltage rail you tend to end up with a noisy rail which jumps around a lot. It's not a nice flat voltage. It varies. The more active loads you hook to a rail the messier it gets. So building a PSU with independent 12 volt rails improves the "cleanness" of the power on each rail. Normally this is only done if you have some circuitry which is extremely picky about the quality of its voltage rails because separate rails cost more money than a single rail.

By the way, in case you're ever tempted to hook the independent 12 volt rails together (I've seen people on the Internet who think this is a good idea), don't do it. Your 12 volt rails may have different ideas about what voltage they should set their rails to. One may be quite a bit different than another. They're separate rails, after all, and they have their own circuitry which controls the voltage. They're bound to vary a bit. And if they're just a little different then you can draw lots of current when you connect them together because each of the output circuits try to force the voltage on the same wires to a different value. That causes either a nice orderly shutdown from the over-current protection or smoke and sparks. There are some power supplies which have switches which allow you to gang the rails together. Once you've set the switch properly it's okay to connect them.


To properly compare power supplies, wattage claims must state the maximum ambient temperature for continuous, full-load operation. Unfortunately for the consumer, this information is usually withheld, opening the door for manufacturers to exaggerate their wattage claims. They do so by assuming an unrealistic ambient temp of only 25°C (77°F), even though the actual internal power supply temp is at least 40°C (104°F). Since the proper full-load rating is 15°C higher for home use and 25°C higher for industrial use, these power supplies produce 33%-50% less power than their advertised ratings.

Conclusion, if you think you need a 650 get an 850 or more.  I do use in my builds modular and multi rail PSU's.  We use them in Overclocking competitions and in everyday use.  I feel its been proven to me that multi rails are better then a single rail.  Currently PC&C is the only company making single rail PSU's that I am aware of.  If this is such an improvement over multi rails why is there only one company doing this oposed to the many makers of PSU's
« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 02:53:53 PM by TilDeath »

Offline eagl

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Re: New computer or should I wait?
« Reply #50 on: December 08, 2008, 07:55:55 PM »
PSU rated power has little to do with how much load the computer draws from the wall.  The two things that affect power draw from the wall socket is the PSU efficiency rating (80% or higher is the goal) and the sum total of the components in the computer.

For example, let's say your computer parts all together draw 200w.  You have an 80% efficient PSU.  That means your total power draw at the wall is 200/0.8, or approx 250w.  That holds true whether or not you have a 500w or a 1000w PSU.

I think that 750w PC Power and Cooling one you linked to would probably be fine.  Make sure it has the connectors you want and just to be sure you should make sure it's on both nvidia's SLI list and AMD/ATI's crossfire list, but other than that it looks just fine to me.
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Offline TilDeath

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Re: New computer or should I wait?
« Reply #51 on: December 08, 2008, 11:10:16 PM »
PSU rated power has little to do with how much load the computer draws from the wall.  The two things that affect power draw from the wall socket is the PSU efficiency rating (80% or higher is the goal) and the sum total of the components in the computer.

For example, let's say your computer parts all together draw 200w.  You have an 80% efficient PSU.  That means your total power draw at the wall is 200/0.8, or approx 250w.  That holds true whether or not you have a 500w or a 1000w PSU.

I think that 750w PC Power and Cooling one you linked to would probably be fine.  Make sure it has the connectors you want and just to be sure you should make sure it's on both nvidia's SLI list and AMD/ATI's crossfire list, but other than that it looks just fine to me.
Amp's are what needs to be rated here.  Video cards esp have amp needs and if they are not met it does not matter if you have a 1800 watt PSU if the rail(s) your GPU is connected to does not have ample Amps you will have failure no exceptions.

My reference to the wall wiring is simple... wire gauges have ratings the wiring in your wall is rated far above the current it carries, in PSU's the wires are of smaller gage and will get warm as they approach their load limits.  PCP&C pushes the gage limits of the ratings (compair small gage jumper cables to expensive large gage, the wire does get hot on small gage jumper cables).

Power & Ground Cable Specs  Absolute Max
Wire Gauge       Capacity Amperage (amps)
1/0                              350
2                             225
4                             150
8                             100
10                               60
12                               40
14                               25
16                               15

Suggested for house wiring
Gauge     Breaker Amps
14                 15
12                 20
10                 30
8                 40
6                 55
4                 70
2                 95
1/0               150
2/0               175
3/0               200

PCP&C is using 14, 16, 18  gage wires and in some cases smaller.  They all carry access to all the Amps on the single rail.  Let me ask this would you wire your home with wire that is not rated for the amps it is carring?  Does not matter be it ac or dc voltage amps are amps.  My eVGA GTX 280 Superclocked requires 40 amps if I run an SLI configuration with two of these needing 80 amps just for the video card PCP&C having only 60amps on the 12v rail total on the Silencer 750.  Again Amps are what matters here on the rail(s) not watts.

Can someone explain to me how 10 gage wire is used on Sata drives if it has a 60amp 12v rail or even 12 gage wire for 40amp.  These are not my ratings but AWG ratings.  Again the PSU manufactures have gone over the 20 amp cap per 12v rail on many models but this is just a recommendation and actually a rule that is not enforced or policed.  But I certainly do not want to have 16 gage wires with access to 60 amps.

Offline BaldEagl

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Re: New computer or should I wait?
« Reply #52 on: December 09, 2008, 12:16:09 AM »
My 750W PCP&C PSU runs great and it hasn't burnt a wire yet.  They are some of the best PSU's on the market.  Either the 610 or the 750 would be more than adequate.
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Offline BaldEagl

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Re: New computer or should I wait?
« Reply #53 on: December 09, 2008, 12:18:19 AM »
Can someone explain to me how 10 gage wire is used on Sata drives if it has a 60amp 12v rail or even 12 gage wire for 40amp. 

Ummm... because the device only DRAWS lower amperage.  It's not like the PSU PUSHES full amperage to every device.
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Offline TilDeath

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Re: New computer or should I wait?
« Reply #54 on: December 09, 2008, 01:49:59 AM »
Ummm... because the device only DRAWS lower amperage.  It's not like the PSU PUSHES full amperage to every device.
Agreed it only draws what is needed but if something goes wrong with the PSU thats a ton of amps available on those small wires

Offline drdeathx

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Re: New computer or should I wait?
« Reply #55 on: December 10, 2008, 12:51:38 AM »
Fulmar found 9800GTX for $150 and I found 9800GT for $109. Just an update on video card deals!!!! BTW ATI 4650 is at $80. All nice cards for AH


9800GTX $150
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814143137
9800GT $109
http://www.amazon.com/EVGA-512-P3-N975-AR-e-GeForce-512MB-Graphics/dp/B001DDYSLA/ref=sr_1_1/185-6398495-8208161?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1228890931&sr=1-1

GTX260 way above $200 eagle.....Post link if at all posssible
ATI 4650 $75
http://www.xpcgear.com/ea1.html

Great deal on PSU!!!! $54
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817703005&nm_mc=EMC-IGNEFL120408&cm_mmc=EMC-IGNEFL120408-_-PowerSupplies-_-L1B-_-17703005
This PSU got a great rating!

If you went PSU $54 + ATI 4650 $75 and sound card $99 you would be $228..... Nice quick fix! The ATI 4650 will be more than ample for AH!
« Last Edit: December 10, 2008, 12:58:29 AM by drdeathx »
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Offline eagl

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Re: New computer or should I wait?
« Reply #56 on: December 10, 2008, 08:03:34 AM »
I posted in that other thread 2 for $219, but this morning they have the MSI GTX 260 for $199 again.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127361


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Offline drdeathx

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Re: New computer or should I wait?
« Reply #57 on: December 10, 2008, 07:32:30 PM »
Very nice eagl!!! Great deals on vid cards as of late.
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Offline Delirium

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Re: New computer or should I wait?
« Reply #58 on: January 10, 2009, 12:18:26 AM »
Well, I updated the PSU and I'm having the same problem (intermittent crashing), reading up it may be because the PCI-E slots are 1.0 and can't support the vid card I got.

Suffice to say, I'm not putting anymore money into this machine, I'm pretty well disgusted already.

Thanks for all the assistance, gents, even if it didn't turn out as well as I hoped.  :)
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Offline BaldEagl

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Re: New computer or should I wait?
« Reply #59 on: January 10, 2009, 12:21:21 AM »
Well, I updated the PSU and I'm having the same problem (intermittent crashing), reading up it may be because the PCI-E slots are 1.0 and can't support the vid card I got.

Suffice to say, I'm not putting anymore money into this machine, I'm pretty well disgusted already.

Thanks for all the assistance, gents, even if it didn't turn out as well as I hoped.  :)

The PCIe 1.0 and 2.0 cards and slots are cross compatible except in very rare instances so that's probably not your problem.  The solution may be as simple as re-formatting.  It's worth a try and doesn't cost anything.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2009, 12:24:01 AM by BaldEagl »
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