Author Topic: AERODYNAMICS: roll rate and ailerons  (Read 3268 times)

Offline Ex-jazz

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AERODYNAMICS: roll rate and ailerons
« on: December 02, 2008, 01:49:11 PM »
Hi

I'm trying to understand the conventional design fixed wing plane basic aerodynamics & physics.

Now I am searching how the ailerons are working and wondering what defines the Roll-Rate(deg/sec) at certain speed with full left/right aileron input.

What counter forces are limiting the max roll rate and how those forces can calculate?

Thanks


Offline Cthulhu

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Re: AERODYNAMICS: roll rate and ailerons
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2008, 03:01:03 PM »
As roll rate increases, the effective (or if you prefer, resultant) angle of attack on each wing acts to increase/decrease the lift on each wing in a manner which limits roll rate. At this limit roll rate, the rotation moments due to aileron deflection and wing local angle of attack are balanced and the aircraft can't roll any faster.

Insufficient torsional stiffness of the wing, as well as the bending stiffness of the aileron and attachment structure can have a negative effect on roll rate as well. This is an aeroelastic phenomenon (Roll Reversal) and can be a real pain in the butt to quantify and correct, although it's usually not nearly as dangerous as flutter, where flight surfaces can resonate and break away with little or no warning.

One other thing. Although it has no effect on steady state roll performance, the rotational inertia about the roll axis will affect how quickly the aircraft responds to aileron inputs. The lower the rotational inertia, the quicker the roll response.

Example:
 Compare the initial roll rate of, say a P-47 with all those guns and fuel in the wings, to that of a Fw-190, with the guns mounted closer to centerline and no fuel in the wings. Big difference.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2008, 03:25:43 PM by Cthulhu »
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Offline Ex-jazz

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Re: AERODYNAMICS: roll rate and ailerons
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2008, 03:29:19 PM »
Hi Cthulhu,

Thank you for your response.

Can we say it is up to the relative air velocity angle caused by roll-rate?

I am not familiar with all terms yet.

Offline Cthulhu

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Re: AERODYNAMICS: roll rate and ailerons
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2008, 03:42:21 PM »
Hi Cthulhu,

Thank you for your response.

Can we say it is up to the relative air velocity angle caused by roll-rate?

I am not familiar with all terms yet.
Yep, that's the gist of it. :aok Why didn't I think of that? :)
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Offline Widewing

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Re: AERODYNAMICS: roll rate and ailerons
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2008, 08:00:23 PM »

Example:
 Compare the initial roll rate of, say a P-47 with all those guns and fuel in the wings, to that of a Fw-190, with the guns mounted closer to centerline and no fuel in the wings. Big difference.

With the exception of the ultra-long ranging P-47N, P-47s didn't have fuel in the wings. All internal fuel was carried in the fuselage.

Check out NACA Report 868 for an interesting study in lateral control of WWII fighters here: http://aerade.cranfield.ac.uk/ara/dl.php?filename=1947/naca-report-868.pdf


My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

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Offline Cthulhu

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Re: AERODYNAMICS: roll rate and ailerons
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2008, 08:17:12 AM »
With the exception of the ultra-long ranging P-47N, P-47s didn't have fuel in the wings. All internal fuel was carried in the fuselage.

Check out NACA Report 868 for an interesting study in lateral control of WWII fighters here: http://aerade.cranfield.ac.uk/ara/dl.php?filename=1947/naca-report-868.pdf


My regards,

Widewing
Thx Widewing, Ever sinced I posted I've been wondering if that applied to all the jugs.

Wow, a 65% reduction in a Spit's aileron effectiveness @ 400mph. Intuitively, I'd think the Spit's wing would be fairly stiff torsionally, but apparently not. Great data. :aok
« Last Edit: December 05, 2008, 08:49:58 AM by Cthulhu »
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Offline BaDkaRmA158Th

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Re: AERODYNAMICS: roll rate and ailerons
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2008, 08:51:42 AM »
I guess that is why jugg's fireball so much.

Also try to carry the six fifty's package, with light ammo load.
Very good. :rock
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Offline RAM

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Re: AERODYNAMICS: roll rate and ailerons
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2008, 06:23:35 PM »
Wow, a 65% reduction in a Spit's aileron effectiveness @ 400mph. Intuitively, I'd think the Spit's wing would be fairly stiff torsionally, but apparently not. Great data. :aok

hispeed rollrate was always a problem with the Spitfires until the Mk.21 brought the new wing. Even the clipped wing Spitfires had problems at very high speeds as the wing couldn't stand a high-speed aileron deflection without some serious twisting.

Supermarine knew there was no way around the problem (the clipped wings were intended to be just an interim solution) as early as 1941, and that's why the Spitfire was to receive a new wing since 1942 for the "ultimate" spitfire. But problems with the development and the decision to make that Spitfire the "ultimate" one meant they had the same problem as with the Vanguard battleship.  Between wing development trouble, and the fact that they wanted to make it so good and so perfect,the fighter simply arrived too late.

Offline Nashwan

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Re: AERODYNAMICS: roll rate and ailerons
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2008, 11:20:26 AM »
Quote
Wow, a 65% reduction in a Spit's aileron effectiveness @ 400mph. Intuitively, I'd think the Spit's wing would be fairly stiff torsionally, but apparently not.

They strengthened it as the war went on.

The 65% comes from an RAE test in early 1941. It represents a Spitfire I or II. The reversal speed was 477 mph.

A 1943 RAE evaluation of the Spitfire V gave reversal speeds of 580 mph (normal wing), 660 mph (clipped wing).


Offline Stoney

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Re: AERODYNAMICS: roll rate and ailerons
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2008, 11:38:47 AM »
What counter forces are limiting the max roll rate and how those forces can calculate?

Another consideration is the roll stability of the aircraft.  Positive static stability in the roll axis means that once aileron is applied in one direction, the aircraft attempts to naturally return to a state of equillibrium, or "right" itself.  Positive static stability in the roll axis will impede the rolling moment created by the ailerons.  Neutral static stability in the roll axis means that once aileron is applied, the aircraft will remain at that roll attitude until an additional roll moment is applied.  An aircraft that possesses neutral static stability in the roll axis will not theoretically impede the rolling moment at all.  Negative static stability is the opposite of positive, i.e. the aircraft will want to not only roll, but roll faster.  The best example is to think of a bowl and a marble.  With the bowl face up, and the marble inside, the marble will always want to roll to the middle and stay there (+ static stability).  With the bowl face down, and the marble on the outside, the marble will always want to roll off the side of the bowl (- static stability). 

Aircraft configuration can have different effects on the roll stability of an aircraft.  The two greatest factors of configuration on roll stability are the wing/fuselage position and dihedral/anhedral. 

There are three basic wing positions relative to the fuselage:  high (above the fuselage), low (under the fuselage), and mid (middle of the fuselage).  A Spitfire or P-47, to use the examples mentioned above, are low-wing aircraft.  A Cessna 172 is an example of a high wing aircraft.  Most mid-wing conventional aircraft that I can think of are aerobatic--more on that in a moment.  High wing configurations typically display higher natural positive static roll stability.  Low wing configurations typically display higher levels of negative static roll stability.  Mid-wing configurations display no theoretical stability bias.

Anhedral and dihedral are methods used to increase or decrease positive static stability in the roll axis.  Anhedral involves positioning the wing tips lower than the wing root, and can be seen on the AV8 Harrier and especially on modern jet transports, like the C-5 and C-17.  Dihedral involves positioning the wing tips higher than the root, and can be seen on both the Spitfire and P-47's discussed above.  Wing anhedral is typically used to decrease the positive static roll stability of aircraft.  Wing dihedral is typically used to increase the positive static roll stability of aircraft.

High wing aircraft typically have no dihedral as a result of the configuration's higher positive stability bias.  In fact, the jet examples I used above, the AV8, C-5, and C-17 use anhedral to increase the roll instability, as their configurations were deemed too roll stable during design.  Low wing aircraft typically have anywhere from 2-5 degrees of dihedral to increase their positive static stability.  Mid wing aircraft typically have no anhedral or dihedral as the wing configuration itself doesn't display any stability bias.

I mentioned before that most aerobatic aircraft, like the Edge or Extra series, have mid wing configurations.  This is because the mid-wing design configuration is deemed by most designers as the most conducive wing configuration for maximizing roll rate, which is an important part of aerobatics.

So, when you fly a FW-190, the fact that its very nimble along the roll axis is a combination of factors, one of which is its low positive static stability.
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Offline Ex-jazz

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Re: AERODYNAMICS: roll rate and ailerons
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2008, 04:04:47 PM »
Hi Stoney

Thank you for your time with deep explanation.

If I understood it right, the hi, mid or low wing configuration with anhedral / dihedral shape effects to the vertical position of the wing aerodynamic center. I have been looking from the web, if there's a WW2 plane data with CG and NP position datas. No luck so far.

So far I have modeling only the 2D model from plane and the longitudinal stability was not an issue. It's getting more and more complicated  :rolleyes:


Offline Stoney

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Re: AERODYNAMICS: roll rate and ailerons
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2008, 04:25:01 PM »
I've got some less-intimitdating stability equations than the ones shown in WW's NACA report.  They're used for estimating stability based on 2D factors--wing area, aileron chord, stations, etc.  They may be helpful to you but they're at home.  Perhaps I can get back on tonight and update this with them.  If dTango wanders in, he may have them too.

One point of clarification though.  Aerodynamic center is not something that's affected by the position of the wing with respect to the fuselage.  The same wing, regardless of whether its a high, mid, or low wing will have the same aerodynamic center.  It is typically considered a factor in determining pitch stability, not roll stability.

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Offline bozon

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Re: AERODYNAMICS: roll rate and ailerons
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2008, 03:36:44 AM »
Just a short remark regarding the above by Stoney. De-stabilizing the plane on the roll axis by playing with wing configuration aids mostly with initiating the roll. It uses gravity to make the plane "want to flip over" and fly inverted (though usually it is not designed to be so extreme). It actually slows you down on the second half of the roll from inverted back to upside-up and I think this is the reason that planes that want to fly inverted (aerobatics) tend to go for the neutral configuration that Stoney mentioned. Fighters do not execute continuous rolling or extended inverted maneuvering - they are more interested in a quick change of direction and initiation of a turn, which would benefit the most from a less stable configuration.
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Offline dtango

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Re: AERODYNAMICS: roll rate and ailerons
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2008, 03:26:45 PM »
Rolling Dynamics



The dynamics of a rolling airplane are remarkably complex for a seemingly simple maneuver.  The reason is lateral stability is highly coupled between roll, yaw, and sideslip.  In real life rolling induces yaw and sideslip while yaw and sideslip also induces roll.  Hence many variables are involved in determining roll performance.  The following diagram illustrates how roll rate changes when you consider yaw and sideslip and stability to sideslip (dihedral effects) compared to a coordinated roll with rudder input to remove center yaw and remove sideslip.




Understanding what limits roll performance is therefore a rather complicated task if we operate in 6 degrees of freedom as in real life.  In designing aircraft some simplifying assumptions are often made the most basic of these are to assume no yaw or sideslip when rolling.  Essentially the simplification is to constrain roll to just one degree of freedom to reduce the complexity in assessing roll rate.  When we do so we are able to reduce roll rate to the following general equation:




In plane English:

Roll rate = (rolling moment due to ailerons / roll damping moment ) * ( 1 – e ^- [time/roll transient time constant]) * aileron_deflection

The equation is the general one degree of freedom form for roll rate which includes both roll acceleration and steady state roll.  A typical time history of a roll looks like the following:





Assuming one degree of freedom when an aircraft rolls it accelerates into the roll with aileron deflection.  Roll rate increases from zero until it reaches a constant / steady state roll.  Roll acceleration is when roll rate accelerates and increases from zero.  Steady roll is when roll acceleration stops and roll rate becomes constant. 

Understanding limits on roll performance means looking at factors for both these phases of roll acceleration and steady roll.

Roll Acceleration Phase:
In our general equation roll acceleration damping is determined by the (1- e^[-t/T]) term .  Roll time constant T determines how fast a roll reaches a steady state after being disturbed.  Delving into the details we can substitute 1/T with the following equation:

 



where:
Q = dynamic pressure (.5*air_density*velocity^2)
S = wing surface area
b = wing span
Clp = coefficient of rolling moment due to rolling
Ixx = rolling moment of inertia
V = velocity

Actually the V on the bottom cancels out by V^2 in dynamic pressure so there is only Velocity left in the numerator but for simplicity sake we will leave it so that we can leave Q as is in the equation.

These are the variables that influence how fast a roll accelerates.  Roll acceleration varies directly with speed, wing area, square of wing span, and rolling coefficient Clp while it varies inversely with rolling moment of inertia.  What this means is the greater the speed, wing area, wing span, and Clp the faster the roll acceleration while the greater the rolling moment of inertia the slower the roll acceleration.  Clp and Ixx are the variables that are hard to come by.  More on that later.  This is how Cthulhu’s statement about inertia comes into play on roll acceleration.




The above diagram shows you the impact of greater or lesser moment of inertia has.  The greater the inertia the slower a roll accelerates.

Steady Roll Phase:
Roll acceleration transient quickly goes to zero and roll rate becomes steady.  When this occurs rolling moment due to aileron deflection equals the opposite rolling moment due to wing damping from angle of attack differential in a roll mentioned by Cthulhu.  In this case the equation then simplifies to:

 



where

V = velocity
b = wing span
Clalpha_a = rolling moment coefficient due to ailerons
Clp = rolling moment coefficient due to rolling (also known as roll damping moment)
delta_a = aileron deflection angle

These then are the key variables that influence steady roll rate of an airplane: directly with airspeed, Clalpha_a, aileron deflection angle and inversely with Clp and wingspan.  Clalpha_a depends on aileron and aileron to wing geometry while Clp depends on wing geometry.  Neither of these values are easy to come by in the real world and are derived from flight testing for a real aircraft.  In design mode various of ways of estimating these values exist for preliminary estimates of what they might be.  Actual values need to come from wind tunnel and flight testing.

Cthulhu is right in saying that roll damping (Clp term) is a factor limiting maximum steady rolling rate.  However the ratio of Clalpha_a/Clp is not the only factor in determining steady roll rate.  Velocity, wing span, and aileron deflection angle also are important.  If we look at some steady roll performance charts like that from NACA 868 Widewing refers to we can see how these variables interact, some obvious, some not so obvious. 




As per the equation if airspeed increases then roll rate increases.  Why then does roll rates begin to reduce after we exceed a certain airspeed?  The answer is that roll rate is also a function of aileron deflection angle.  Aileron deflection is affected by dynamic pressure which is a function of air density and air speed.  The faster we go the greater the dynamic pressure which means the greater the force needed to deflect the aileron.  Aileron deflection then depends on the amount of force that a pilot and associated control mechanisms can exert to deflect the aileron.  The NACA graph above is done with a 50-lb stick force and we can see for different aircraft that the control forces are not enough to deflect the ailerons at their maximum any longer as airspeed increases.

So none of this takes into account any of the other degrees of freedom that exist!  What Stoney and Bozon mention about dihedral effect etc. aren’t even factored in because we’ve assumed no yaw or sideslip involved.  It get’s even more complicated when you factor those and other variables in!

As for looking for real life Clalpha_a, Clp, and Ixx data for the WW2 aircraft there definitely isn’t a single source I know where this is collected.  In fact most of it would have to be derived from flight test data for these airplanes.

I hope that sheds some light on the matter!

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Offline Stoney

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Re: AERODYNAMICS: roll rate and ailerons
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2008, 03:51:37 PM »
I thought the "Keel Effect" of the wing configuration was a function of longitudinal stability only, independent of side slip and yaw?  That only when dihedral/anhedral are introduced does side slip and yaw come into play.

Regardless, excellent explanation.
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HiTech