Lets lose the 6 view in fighters.

[SKurj]

WB3 does use the Linda Blair view, hell it even permits external view in fighters atm

SKurj

[snafu]

Hey Kweassa,

17 views? There are actually 27 seperate views in AH. 8 level, 8 45 degree up, 8 45 degree down, straight up, straight down (Not much use apart for checking my underwear after a particularly hard fight). Plus you can also program the "hat forward" view (As opposed to the default no buttons pressed view forward view). I have set this up to raise my head position to follow planes which drop below the nose in the default view.

 

Originally posted by LtHans:
WW2OL uses the "no six view" thing, so does WB3.  It iritates me to no end that I have to do some funky, multibutton crap with one hand OFF the joystick throttle to be able to do something so natural as turning my simulated head.

You can take your idea and throw it in the lake, and if need be I will throw you in after it.

Hans.

OK.... <Searches for soapbox>

So Hans, your solution to having to press to many buttons is to refer to sims which (Apparently) do not even provide a 6 view solution. (How realistic is that? I use a cyborg 3d and never have to press more than 2 buttons to look in any direction (Up,down,left,right,backwards right & up etc). and lets face it it's a cheap enough stick. I don't usually rise to comments like yours but..... If you cannot handle an 8 way hat switch I doubt very much if you would have the dexterity to throw me or my idea into any lake. Cyas up there (Check 6)    

TTFN
snafu

[ 09-03-2001: Message edited by: snafu ]

[Effdub]

hmmm... I wonder how tight those pilots were really strapped in...? When you watch real footage the groundcrew seems to strap 'em in tight - chest straps and all (Makes sense if you consider they'd have better chances surviving a ditch that way, plus negative G forces combined with a roll may flop you around if you only have your legs strapped in...).

Quote from a German pilot commenting on the design of the Me109: "between wars we forgot to build planes with a 6-view..."

Another tidbit: it was harder for pilots to look over their right shoulder since they are holding the stick with their right hand (Pilots found it easier to bank left for the same reason  

aww well, "any" view system will be more or less realistic so I guess AH's one is "ok"... The only view system I never ever want to come across again is EAW's one: ABSOLUTLY NO BLOCKED VIEW WHEN LOOKING BACKWARDS! PUKE!

whatever,

Effdub

[Suave1]

It wasn't that uncommon for WWII pilots to undo their sholder straps or even all of their straps while in flight . There are instances of pilots breaking their faces and loosing teeth on the instrument panel becuase they forgot to fasten thier seatbelts before landing .

[ 09-03-2001: Message edited by: Suave1 ]

[SKurj]

Oh I am sure you are right Suave1, but I bet as soon as a con was spotted those harnesses were snugged up.  Once the fight was over the straps were likely loosened for the return trip.

Being able to shift around and look back while pulling 6gee, or while inverted is not a possibility IMO

I say lose direct 6 view

SKurj

[Fatty]

I believe anyone that can't see a 210 degree span while their back is firmly in place against a hard surface needs to see a chiropractor.

We've already got 9 different input combinations required to simply roll your eyes around in front of you without moving your head, but somehow this is making it too easy?

If you want an easier bounce, just lobby for invisible planes, it's more realistic.

[Kweassa]

Friend Snafu:

 Yer right, but usually we use default 8 directions, straight up, combination of straight up + 8 views, and finally, the hat forward alternately programmable forward view.. that would make 18.. thx for correcting.


 Friend Effdub:

 The bank left/turn left tendency is probably something which has more to do torque effect, but I guess ergonomics kick into action too..

 ........

 The real problem is not whether or not it is possible if the human neck can crank back and look behind.. I definately think it is possible, even without straps to some extent. But the problem is when you crank your neck to look behind, then sit up straight as you can, raising your neck, THEN while head looking back, maintain neck height and lean body forward so the head moves along with it.. which gives you the "panoramic 6 view" we have in AH.

 It is like we have two heads looking behind, each looking over one shoulder.

 I say limit the max range of modifiable head movements in 6 view. Limit Left or right adjustment within bounds of canopy glass + decreased "Raise head" + decreased "Move head back"

[SKurj]

Fatty My suggestion is , if possible just increase the left/right rear view to the rear.  You are right you can see your 6 that way, but only in your peripheral, and one side at a time, u cannot see "everything"

I don't see why it would be a big deal to give the player, a FWD, FWD left/right, left, right, and RR right/left. 7 instead of 8 and more realistic IMO

The 6 view we have now requires no head motion at all, just flip eyes in skull and look through clear and vacant cavity to the rear of the plane.

I can live with either way, i just can't deny this thread makes a point

SKurj

[J_A_B]

I feel the need to post here:

I like the idea of having no direct-6 view.  You should have to either look back+left, or back+ right.  Essentially reversing yourself in your seat is not representative of WW2 air combat.

No, I don't own a joystick with a hat for views; I use the keyboard for views.  I have NO difficulty at all working the views, and would have NO difficulty at all if there was no direct 6 view mode.  IMO the keyboard is actually better for views than a hat anyway, you just have to use the correct keys for it (the numerical keypad is HORRIBLE for views).  The hat is BEST used for head-movement in conjunction with keyboard-based view keys.

There are many reasons why an AH player using a crappy 2-button joystick are at a disadvantage.  The view system is not among them.

Having a direct 6 view is not at all realistic.  I am surprised that not more people in the AH community want it to be abolished, since unrealistic, arcade-like gameplay devices tend not to be welcome here.  I have found that the views from back+left and back+right overlap--so technically a direct-6 view isn't even needed anyway.  It just allows people to do things which are not possible in reality.

J_A_B

[Fatty]

But you're already limited simply by the field of view.  Yes, your head can move up and down when looking back, but you're still limited to a fraction of what you would normally be able to see.

And that fraction field of view is a fraction of the clarity of what you would normally be able to see.  Making it harder for people to see in such a limited view system to begin with is going away from realism.

[Kweassa]

Il-2-ish 'swiveling look back' should help solve this problem out.

 Limit head postion modifications while 6 view + 'swiveling look back' .. and we can program TWO 6 views. Turn head left, look over left shoulder and your vision is limited to the left half of 6 O'clock.. turn head right, look over right shoulder and it is limited to the right half of 6 O'clock.

 This way unlike IL-2, we do have a 6 view.. but like Il-2, we have to swivel our head the other way around to check the other half of 6 O'clock.

 With this feature implemented, Snap view head movement speeds should be increased.. but probably not a big necessity since you can always use Instant view mode.

[discod]

Here is something to consider....

A direct six view was possible in real life in probably most any plane.  And so were "outside of cockpit" views.

Sure...just open the hatch/window!!!  

Technology limits the reality a game like this can achieve because everything is "virtual" and much more mechanical than natural.  We don't see this game in live 3D with depth perception, perifrial view, and we can't move our virtual eyes, neck, and body anywhere near as well or quick in the gazillion possible combinations that we can in Real Life, and the resolution of the game is no where near as good as we can see in real life.  

So the bottom line is that the current view set is not realistic 100% but I think it is fair to say that it helps to balance out the other areas where technology is lacking.  If you really want more realism in this game then you should be hitting bigger issues like full 100% real controls.  Right now all we have is throttle, brakes, stick/rudder, trims, WEP, fuel and ordinance selection.   These are only the basic things that the real pilots had to worry about during combat.

[Pepe]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think the real problem with 6 view are radar settings. Being on the CT for some nights, I've been suffering bounce-a'plenty on a regular basis  . Maybe, I don't know for real, 6 views are a bit too liberal, but still hard enough when you get rid of the Inflight Dot Radar - AWACS - JSTARS currently in MA.

If you do not have XXI century cabin setting displaying that you actually have a dot on your tail, It's not so easy to spot it with current AH views. And when you have short icon setting, It's crucial to do it properly.

Honestly, I'm not trying to hijack this thread into another one of the zillion radar threads, but I believe, based on my experience, that AH views are not that wonderful when you do not have early warning devices  

Cheers,

Pepe

[SKurj]

typically discod, during combat the pilot would have one hand on stick, which contained fire buttons of course.  Ordnance/gunsets would have been configured prior to engagement i'd assume.  The other hand would be on throttle, which is in easy reach of trims, and flap controls.  Tho I dunno if trims would be used much.  The fighter pilot in the cockpit probably had a much more natural control setup than we do, he would just have to expend alittle more physical effort in using those controls.

opps he would have to release some controls to loosen his seat belt, take off goggles, and pivot in his seat so that he could see down both sides of the headrest, while pulling 4 gees, dropping a notch of flaps, and firewalling the throttle +)


SKurj

[CJ]

People always assume that fighter pilots crank their shoulder straps down so tight that they can't move their shoulders.  I've flown with an ex vietnam F-4 pilot in a super decathalon.  His practice is to leave the shoulder straps somewhat loose, and tighten the lap belts to keep you from lifting out of yoru seat.  That allows you to pivot your shoulders some, and get the 6 view if you really stretch.  Of course in a super decathalon it doesn't allow a good 6 view, but in a fighter it would.  Again, probably not in the F-4, but this theory about tightening shoulder belts until you can't move your shoulders is not always the case.  Some pilots do regularly tighten the shoulder belts extremely tightly, and some don't.  I think the 6 view would be acquirable in a P-51 with the shoulder belts slightly loose, but it would be difficult.  Maybe they could limit the G's at which the 6 view is acquirable with.

CJ