Author Topic: 262 Perk of a Perk option  (Read 4488 times)

Offline Wolfala

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4875
262 Perk of a Perk option
« on: December 09, 2008, 10:18:05 AM »
http://www.walter-rockets.i12.com/ato/me262i.htm

Introduction.
[Messerschmitt Me.262.C-1a Taking Off]

Very early in the development of the Messerschmitt Me.262, meetings between the RLM, Messerschmitt and BMW had proposed alternate power plants for the Me.262. However, the first serious proposals were published in the Project Bureau report of July 22nd 1943.

Three proposed designs were designated the Interceptor I, II and III. However, once work began on the first design in September 1944, it was initially called the Me.262.J1 or Heimatschützer I - "Home Defender I". One of the early series Me.262s Wkr.Nr 130186 had a modified rear fuselage, adapted to carry a redesigned HWK 109-509 motor, with the combustion chamber exhausting at the tail end, beneath a specially cut-away rudder. By the time the first flight had been made, the new model had been given the soubriquet, Me.262.C-1a.

 
History.
[Me.262.C-1a]

The prototype Me.262.C-1a, "186" was completed, making its first flight on October 16th 1944. But it was not until 27th February 1945 that the first take-off was made with the rocket motor. The take-off run was reduced by at least 200m, and with the turbojets operating, the three minute running of the rocket motor could push the Me.262.C-1a to 26,000 feet.

One recorded interception was made in the rocket-powered "186", when Major Heinz Bar of III./EJG2 took off from Lechfeld. Climbing to nearly 30,000 feet in a little over three minutes he was able to intercept and shoot down a USAF Thunderbolt.

The internal mounting of the HWK motor was problematic in terms of servicing, and severely limited the amount of the J2 fuel which could be carried for the turbo jets. Although there was a limited amount of success with this installation, the Interceptor II and Interceptor III projects were investigated as other important options.
 
-: Top of Page :-     -: Back to ATO Page :-
 
Description.
[HWK 109-509.S1 Main Installation]

The installation in the Heimatschützer I was a modification of the HWK 109-509.A-1, with the standard parts of the motor repositioned through the rear fuselage.

The combustion chamber (1) was supported on a three-tube thrust mounting (3), the forward of each being attached to a fuselage frame, with the standard HWK support tube (7) to carry the weight of the distant portion of the combustion unit.

The combustion chamber was cooled by the C-Stoff fuel.

 
[HWK 109-509.S1 Fuel Regulator]

The illustration on the right shows the fuel flow and pressure regulating valve, with the three stage T-Stoff fuel flow pipes towards the camera. Also plainly in view is the C-Stoff fuel filter, turned up from the standard HWK 109-509.A-1 position, in order to fit the reduced space in the installation.

Shown slightly more clearly are the thrust bearers (3), which take the place of the large, cast thrust plate in the "A-1" model. These stays are bolted to pressed brackets which are fixed to the skin and fuselage stringers.

Labelled in the picture are the push-pull dural rods (15) for the rudder and elevators. Also, the profile of the flat steel plate (5), which is fixed between the angle frames which make up the rear fuselage transport joint.

The steel sandwich plate is shaped and anchored, it's thought, to prevent distortion of the fuselage from the radial components of the thrust transmitted down the stays, when the rocket motor is under power.

Also shown, is the combustion chamber support tube (7), and its attachment point.

 
[HWK 109-509.S1 Fuselage Installation]

This is an illustration taken down the fuselage tunnel, from behind the wings, looking towards the tail and the Walter motor. Shown is the prominent steam generator (9), which provides motive power for the fuel pump turbine. The pump itself is not clearly visible, but it is mounted on a frame (8), suspended around the thrust tube attachment points. This motor seems to be an "A-1" derivative, as there does not appear to be a T-Stoff starter tank, and the picture does seem to show an electric starter geared onto the end of the T-Stoff pump.

Item (17) is the rudder trim control, and the very large diameter pipes in the well of the fuselage (18) are the fuel pipes leading the T-Stoff and C-Stoff from the fuselage tanks.

 
[HWK 109-509.S1 Exhaust Venturi]

This final picture shows how the Walter combustion chamber exhaust is fitted into the rear of the fuselage. The rudder was cut away at the base to keep the structure out of the severe rocket blast.

Shown in the picture, is the bottom rudder hinge point (12).

The Me.262's fuel tanks were modified to carry the extra fuels. The forward 900 litre tank was replaced with a non-corrosive tank of the same capacity for the T-Stoff. The 250 litre tank below the cockpit was kept for J2 fuel, as was the 900 litre tank behind the cockpit. The rearmost tank was replaced with a 625 litre tank for the C-Stoff.

At least one author adds a note that two drop tanks of T-Stoff were added below the fuselage nose, but the RAE's investigation of the Me.262.C-1a, was confined to the remains of the fuselage which they captured, so does not mention any additional tanks.

The additional motor controls in the cockpit were arranged on the left side above the pilot's throttle quadrant.

Interestingly the Me.262.C-1a had a duplicate set of 770x270 main wheels fitted alongside the standard undercarriage wheels, which were jettisonable after take-off.










the best cure for "wife ack" is to deploy chaff:    $...$$....$....$$$.....$ .....$$$.....$ ....$$

Offline 1pLUs44

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3332
Re: 262 Perk of a Perk option
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2008, 04:49:58 PM »
woa man!
No one knows what the future may bring.

Offline Delirium

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7276
Re: 262 Perk of a Perk option
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2008, 03:42:08 AM »
3 Prototypes planned, 2 built and none of them saw any action.

Much like the heavy zeke, if it didn't see combat historically then HTC tends not to implement it.
Delirium
80th "Headhunters"
Retired AH Trainer (but still teach the P38 selectively)

I found an air leak in my inflatable sheep and plugged the hole! Honest!

Offline Xasthur

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2728
Re: 262 Perk of a Perk option
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2008, 04:19:34 AM »
Mmmm..... a 262 with a NOS bottle  :lol  That would be fun.

If it didn't see action in unit strength it doesn't get in... While it would be nice... no chance.

Germany is strangely fortunate that Hitler was such a complete failure as an airborne tactician... Had the 262 been given priority as a fighter with the R4M rockets and that rocket booster system been introduced, the Luftwaffe would have been able to sweep the skies of Allied bombers with only a small number of aircraft. Only 30 well trained pilots in those 262s would have been able to take out 90% of a bomber box with little or no chance of interception. With only 100 or slightly more operational 262s they could have inflicted losses too costly for the Allies to afford.

If the Luftwaffe had succeeded in halting the Allied air offensive I fear that Berlin would have ended up like Hiroshima.

The Luftwaffe would have had the means to intercept the B-29s but it would only take one to get through.... An interesting thought.
Raw Prawns
Australia

"Beaufighter Operator Support Services"

Offline Delirium

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7276
Re: 262 Perk of a Perk option
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2008, 08:38:59 AM »
If the Luftwaffe had succeeded in halting the Allied air offensive I fear that Berlin would have ended up like Hiroshima.

The atom bomb wasn't originally developed to be used against Japan, it was designed with Germany in mind primarily.
Delirium
80th "Headhunters"
Retired AH Trainer (but still teach the P38 selectively)

I found an air leak in my inflatable sheep and plugged the hole! Honest!

Offline Lusche

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23876
      • Last.FM Profile
Re: 262 Perk of a Perk option
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2008, 09:45:49 AM »
Germany is strangely fortunate that Hitler was such a complete failure as an airborne tactician... Had the 262 been given priority as a fighter with the R4M rockets and that rocket booster system been introduced, the Luftwaffe would have been able to sweep the skies of Allied bombers with only a small number of aircraft. Only 30 well trained pilots in those 262s would have been able to take out 90% of a bomber box with little or no chance of interception. With only 100 or slightly more operational 262s they could have inflicted losses too costly for the Allies to afford.

The common knowledge that it was Hitler personally who fubared everything and prevented Luftwaffe from reigning the sky is, for the greatest part, a myth.
After the war the Germans happily blamed Hitler for everything thats happened in the war. And so did upper echelon Luftwaffe officers, industrialists, scientists...


When the R4M was designed, the war was alread lost, the industry hurt badly, and the Allies ruled the sky. No priority program for the R4M could have changed that in early 1945.

IF the Luftwaffe would had been able at that point to muster 100 operational 262s, good pilots for them and the necessary fuel... the Allies would have adapted tactics. They would have made their field and support facilities a priority target, constantly flying air patrols, hunting 262s at takeoff and in landing pattern, bombing the facilities round the clock.
Steam: DrKalv
E:D Snailman

Offline trotter

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 817
Re: 262 Perk of a Perk option
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2008, 11:33:36 AM »
IF the Luftwaffe would had been able at that point to muster 100 operational 262s, good pilots for them and the necessary fuel... the Allies would have adapted tactics. They would have made their field and support facilities a priority target, constantly flying air patrols, hunting 262s at takeoff and in landing pattern, bombing the facilities round the clock.

Not to mention the even quicker development of the F-80.

Offline Die Hard

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2205
Re: 262 Perk of a Perk option
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2008, 09:11:27 AM »
If the Luftwaffe had succeeded in halting the Allied air offensive I fear that Berlin would have ended up like Hiroshima.

If the Luftwaffe had succeeded in halting the Allied air offensive with 262's what makes you think a B-29 would make it to Berlin?
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

-Gandhi

Offline Die Hard

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2205
Re: 262 Perk of a Perk option
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2008, 09:19:10 AM »
Oh and why waste such a weapon on Berlin which was 80% destroyed already from British night bombing? Nuking a heap of rubble does not make much sense.
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

-Gandhi

Offline AWwrgwy

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5478
Re: 262 Perk of a Perk option
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2008, 03:14:17 PM »
Oh and why waste such a weapon on Berlin which was 80% destroyed already from British night bombing? Nuking a heap of rubble does not make much sense.

I'm sure they didn't have "blowing up buildings" as a priority.  Maybe "melting the people" was the idea.



wrongway
71 (Eagle) Squadron
"THAT"S PAINT!!"

"If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through."
- General Sir Anthony Cecil Hogmanay

Offline Rich46yo

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7358
Re: 262 Perk of a Perk option
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2008, 04:44:27 PM »
There's a reason the German officers waited until July '44 to try and kill Hitler. The success of the Normandy landings meant the end of the Reich and the only hope was negotiation. I don't think it would have then mattered how many 262s they put in the air. What good are jets without fuel? Fighting against enemies that would throw 10 against your 1 ?

Normandy was the end. And the German generals knew it.
"flying the aircraft of the Red Star"

Offline LLogann

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4947
      • Candidz.com
Re: 262 Perk of a Perk option
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2008, 05:05:49 PM »
Are you asking a trick question?  Think service ceiling................  :salute
If the Luftwaffe had succeeded in halting the Allied air offensive with 262's what makes you think a B-29 would make it to Berlin?
See Rule #4
Now I only pay because of my friends.

Offline Larry

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6123
Re: 262 Perk of a Perk option
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2008, 06:18:58 PM »
There's a reason the German officers waited until July '44 to try and kill Hitler. The success of the Normandy landings meant the end of the Reich and the only hope was negotiation. I don't think it would have then mattered how many 262s they put in the air. What good are jets without fuel? Fighting against enemies that would throw 10 against your 1 ?

Normandy was the end. And the German generals knew it.




IIRC the jets didnt use the same fuel the other fighters did.
Once known as ''TrueKill''.
JG 54 "Grünherz"
July '18 KOTH Winner


Offline Lusche

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23876
      • Last.FM Profile
Re: 262 Perk of a Perk option
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2008, 06:20:49 PM »



IIRC the jets didnt use the same fuel the other fighters did.

Which only did matter paritally as all fuel production came to a grinding halt late 44 / early 45 with no hope of recovery
Steam: DrKalv
E:D Snailman

Offline Die Hard

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2205
Re: 262 Perk of a Perk option
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2008, 06:52:01 PM »
Which only did matter paritally as all fuel production came to a grinding halt late 44 / early 45 with no hope of recovery

Actually by March of 1945 they had restored a third of the lost production of aviation fuel in underground refineries and Fischer-Tropsch plants, and fuel stocks were not yet depleted. But all this is rather irrelevant considering the state of the ground war at this point.
It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence.

-Gandhi