Author Topic: 150 Avgas.. Mike Williams take note  (Read 2600 times)

Offline Widewing

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150 Avgas.. Mike Williams take note
« on: December 12, 2008, 07:01:47 PM »
Mike, one of the 8,800+ WWII documents in my collection is one detailing Aviation Gasoline production during the war. It discussed 150 octane fuel (and other high octane fuels).

I copied the relevant pages and posted them below. I didn't see any reference to the document on your website. I have a PDF copy of the report, but at 287 megs, it's too big to e-mail. I could burn a copy to CD if you want the whole thing.

Here the pages I refer to, and the top sheets as well.












My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline 1pLUs44

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Re: 150 Avgas.. Mike Williams take note
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2008, 07:03:26 PM »
Interesting Read :salute
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Offline Scherf

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Re: 150 Avgas.. Mike Williams take note
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2008, 12:03:46 AM »
I think there's no need to burn to a CD - appears to be downloadable from here:

http://www.au.af.mil/au/afhra/numbered_studies/studies2.asp

Not surprisingly, it's number 65, seems to be a simple right-click and save as...
... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline Mike Williams

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Re: 150 Avgas.. Mike Williams take note
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2008, 08:33:47 AM »
Hello Widewing:

Thanks for bringing that document to my attention.  I do have a copy of that report but it has been awhile since I've read through it.   Thanks for the reminder.  I'll work on weaving some of the material into the 100/150 Grade Fuel narrative.  I think you've shared the heart of it that relates to improved fuels in the US during the later war years.  Good stuff!

Offline Angus

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Re: 150 Avgas.. Mike Williams take note
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2008, 07:17:45 AM »
And hereby the myth about the 150 oct being in little use is .... completely busted ;)
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Charge

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Re: 150 Avgas.. Mike Williams take note
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2008, 09:22:21 AM »
Angus, you might want to read the whole text before commenting. :rolleyes:

Interesting document.  :aok

-C+
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Offline Angus

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Re: 150 Avgas.. Mike Williams take note
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2008, 09:26:24 AM »
Well, it shows they wanted more and could naturally not use it exclusively, but it's a far shot from old claims that it was in very very little use.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Saxman

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Re: 150 Avgas.. Mike Williams take note
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2008, 12:18:05 PM »
I only skimmed over it, but it looks like the Navy was involved. Can I have 150 in my F4U now?

;)
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Offline Angus

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Re: 150 Avgas.. Mike Williams take note
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2008, 01:18:44 PM »
Imagine a Spixteen with it  :devil
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline SectorNine50

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Re: 150 Avgas.. Mike Williams take note
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2008, 06:40:34 AM »
Imagine a Spixteen with it  :devil
God no.

Lets give Spixteens 89 octane...
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Offline Wolfala

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Re: 150 Avgas.. Mike Williams take note
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2008, 07:41:48 AM »
Mike, one of the 8,800+ WWII documents in my collection is one detailing Aviation Gasoline production during the war. It discussed 150 octane fuel (and other high octane fuels).

I copied the relevant pages and posted them below. I didn't see any reference to the document on your website. I have a PDF copy of the report, but at 287 megs, it's too big to e-mail. I could burn a copy to CD if you want the whole thing.

Here the pages I refer to, and the top sheets as well.

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My regards,

Widewing

WW,

Would be interesting to talk to someone on the maintenance side of things about their operational experience with 150. My old A&P teacher was chiefing Bear Cats way back - i'll see if he's still around to answer the question. Failing that, do you have any salty sources?

Wolf



the best cure for "wife ack" is to deploy chaff:    $...$$....$....$$$.....$ .....$$$.....$ ....$$

Offline Mike Williams

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Re: 150 Avgas.. Mike Williams take note
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2008, 08:25:39 AM »
Would be interesting to talk to someone on the maintenance side of things about their operational experience with 150.

That’s a good idea Wolf.  Merle Olmsted of the 357th would have been a good one for that, however, if memory served he passed away not long ago.  I’ve had some success finding documentation from supply, servicing and engineering:











Offline Wolfala

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Re: 150 Avgas.. Mike Williams take note
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2008, 09:04:12 AM »
That’s a good idea Wolf.  Merle Olmsted of the 357th would have been a good one for that, however, if memory served he passed away not long ago.  I’ve had some success finding documentation from supply, servicing and engineering:

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My main concern is in terms of serviceability. We've already seen the reports of spark plug gap wear replacement at 50% of its rated service life. That stump never was cheap - 1 plug today runs in the neighborhood of $30 for a current engine - an R2800 using RHB36S is pushing $80 a plug - times 36 plugs. I could easily see reasons the Battalion S4 would balk at the idea of a PO of triple the spark plugs for any given outfit in some theater.

I'm not so concerned about the Merlin or any liquid inline because, pardon the pun, it was a 1 trick pony and had no life after the War outside tractor pulls and Reno. But if 150 was used for specific applications - i.e. running 5 minute alert intercepts, chasing down V1s where you need the extra anti-detonation margins of 150 and can afford to abuse the engine, then that I can honestly live with.

But coming from a maintenance background that has to live in the real world with financial and equipment limitations - unless we can demonstrate that the fuel was used in a specific capacity for a specific purpose and not just thrown into any old radial or inline, I don't think we are going to see it.

Catch my drift?

« Last Edit: December 16, 2008, 09:06:19 AM by Wolfala »


the best cure for "wife ack" is to deploy chaff:    $...$$....$....$$$.....$ .....$$$.....$ ....$$

Offline Angus

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Re: 150 Avgas.. Mike Williams take note
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2008, 02:42:05 PM »
A set of plugs is cheaper than an aircraft.
And the prices are not todays antique prices.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Charge

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Re: 150 Avgas.. Mike Williams take note
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2008, 05:41:42 AM »
To me the report WW posted clearly states that the improved fuels were only to be produced if that would not affect the quantities of 130 grade production. The situation looked good because it was seen that 130 grade fuel production objectives were going to be exceeded. However, later on in the document they saw that in the future there would be problems with aircraft gasoline production so would that actually mean that demands for 130 grade "basic" fuel would over-ride the needs for 145 grade fuel. Notice: 145 grade fuel, not 150. The 150 was seen a desirable product but it was not to be produced as was 145 grader. What is interesting is that the later document in thread only refer to 150 octane. IF the reference actually means 115/145 octane the early tests and their results done with real 150 grade fuel would be a different matter. What is the 150 grade referred in performance documents? Is it actually 145 grader or is it actual 150 grade fuel? What would be supplied to operational units? Or is the first report erroneous in a sense that the US gasoline production actually was able to produce sufficient amounts of "real" 120/150 grade fuel later on?

Quality?
The increase of tetraethyl was obviously giving leeway to 130 gasoline quality process and it could be used to keep the octane rating high and thus increasing production numbers. How did this reflect to 145 grade production? Or 104/150 as opposed to 120/150 octane? Is the 104/150 better distilled product and is the 120/150 done merely by increasing tetraethyl thus also boosting the lean mixture rating but causing also more problems in form of lead deposits when aircraft is flown in partial power. It seems that the toxicity claim and anecdotal evidence of pilots would support this. It also seems that 115/145 fuel was quite tetraethyl rich. If you do a performance test with better distilled 150 grade fuel would the performance be the same with poorer distilled 150 boosted merely with tetraethyl?

Production and consumption?
164 000 000 barrels of 130 grade in 1944 (1barrel=42gallons?) equals 6 888 000 000 gallons. Of course it has to be kept in mind that if half of the airforce would be bombers and half fighters the bombers would still have four or two motors so the share of total going fighters is quite small.

If we estimate a normal daily fuel usage of a P-51 to be around 250 gallons a 20 plane unit would fly a week with the amount of fuel stated in the latter document IF they flew every day tanks full. Just to give a perspective of what 35 000 gallons operationally means, roughly that is. (In practice there would be various amounts of fuel left in tanks after flights but then again fuel wasted in drop tanks or with lost aircraft etc etc.)

-C+
"When you wish upon a falling star, your dreams can come true. Unless it's really a giant meteor hurtling to the earth which will destroy all life. Then you're pretty much screwed no matter what you wish for. Unless of course, it's death by meteorite."