4 engines in AR-234

[Karnak]

He is obviously referring to the period when Meteor Mk IIIs were assigned to the continent, not when Mk Is were being held back for defense against V1s.

[Die Hard]

He is obviously referring to the period when Meteor Mk IIIs were assigned to the continent, not when Mk Is were being held back for defense against V1s.

After the V1 threat to Britain was over the Meteor was still not deployed in combat against the Luftwaffe. They were forbidden to fly over enemy territory for intelligence security reasons. Instead they became a training tool for American bomber crews to train on fending off jet fighters. Only several months later in January 1945 were they transferred to the continent, and even then their missions were heavily restricted to avoid one falling into enemy hands. Not until the very last months were the Meteors released for unrestricted combat.

The Luftwaffe lost thousands of aircraft in air combat in the west in 1945. Even as late as March the USAAF bombers reported daily multiple attacks of 100+ formations of German fighters.

[Angus]

I referred to 616. The Storch.
BTW, the transfer to Meteor III should not be unobserved, since the performance was significally better.
The meteors were operational in July, and had their debut at shooting down the waves of incoming V-1's. Those numbered thousands, and IMHO it was a very wise choice to apply the new squadrons exactly this way.
Of course the LW was there in July 1944, blood nosed but still angry, but only a shadow of the former LW was there once the Meteors went hunting in 1945.
By chance the Meteors could have mixed it with LW fighters, props or jets, - but that didn't happen.
Why? Well, the odds of meeting LW fighters were not so good. The skies were full of allied fighters, LW sorties were few, their targets were bombers primarilly, and the Meteors were not so many.

[chris3]

In that box with all the other planes that didn't see any combat in WWII.

moin

mmh i think only the 4 engine ar234 saw combat and the 2 engine ar234 was the first produktion los with the 262 engines jumo 004. but the jumos were needed for the 262 so thay switched the ar234 to the bmw engines with less power.

cu chris3

[Angus]

"The Luftwaffe lost thousands of aircraft in air combat in the west in 1945. Even as late as March the USAAF bombers reported daily multiple attacks of 100+ formations of German fighters."

Quotes please?

I'll have my words on this though. As a flipside to this I have been in a debate where the issue was that the LW was dead in 1944, where I did not agree.
In 1944, which may have been the bloodiest year of the LW, they lost some 10.000 aircraft, if memory serves some 3-4 on the western front for each one the eastern front.
I would be very happy to add to my archive from LW losses BTW. 1942-1943 would be particularly interesting.
Anyway, I seriously doubt your "thousands" numbers in air combat. Thousands as a total, yes, but many scrapped and many shot up on the ground.
As for the reports of the bombers, well, they were not always that reliable. If you look at their claims for instance, they are insanely off.
In 1945, the common sight in the skies over Germany were allied fighters. And there you had pilots who flew complete tours without engaging the enemy. You had missions, - even bomber + escorts, where the mission was completed without sighting an enemy aircraft, as well as there were many missions where enemies were sighted, but turned away because of escorts.
In short, in 1945 it was by no means any surprize that a handful of Meteors didn't make it into a mix. Could have happened, but didn't.
BTW, the Meteor I didn't have such a phenomenal performance above the best prop fighters. It was well suited for chasing up the doodlebugs though.

[Die Hard]

If you head over to Kacha's site he has made available pdf's of the Luftwaffe victory claims for each month in 1945. They're quite detailed.

And from Alfred Price's Luftwaffe Data Book:

Serviceable Aircraft Strength 10 January 1945

Single-engined fighters   1462
Night fighters   808
Ground-attack aircraft   613
Night harassment aircraft   302
Multi-engined bombers   294
Anti-shipping aircraft   83
Long-range reconnaissance aircraft   176
Short-range and army cooperation aircraft   293
Coastal aircraft   60
Transport aircraft   269
Misc. aircraft (KG 200)   206
Total   4566


Serviceable Aircraft Strength on 9 April 1945:

Single-engined fighters   1305
Night fighters   485
Ground-attack aircraft   712
Night harassment aircraft   215
Multi-engined bombers   37
Long-range reconnaissance aircraft   143
Short-range and army cooperation aircraft   309
Coastal aircraft   45
Transport aircraft   10
Misc. aircraft (KG 200)   70
Total   3331

The book has detailed data on almost every unit at the time, but for obvious reasons I can't be bothered to type everything here.


This USAAF site has the USAAF losses detailed: http://www.usaaf.net/digest/t100.htm

Total USAAF losses in Europe January - August 1945: 4,851 aircraft. About half of what they lost in all of 1944. And that number does not include their losses in the Med.

"In the ETO (non Mediterranean MTO) during 1944, USAAF lost 1,293 fighter aircraft to enemy fighters, while losing 1,611 due to German Flak. In 1945 the ratio of fighters lost to Flak vs Luftwaffe fighters was almost 4:1."

If we extrapolate that ratio to include all aircraft that's more than a thousand American aircraft shot down by the Luftwaffe in 1945.

If you don't want to believe it, don't believe it.

[Angus]

More than a thousand american aircraft were killed, yes, and a good proportion of that destroyed in one day?
And 4 to one fell for flak vs a different balance in 1944. 1944 was the year when the flak passed the LW.
Not sure of the Allied sorties, but tend to think that 1945 would have been the most intensive one on daily basis. But that's the U.S. losses here...
And the LW's losses? Don't see them on Kacha's page? (lots of good links though)
Oh, Price's book looks promising. Is it a must-have? I have been spending some time on LW losses (Including sweating over their loss archives in the IWM), and the reports seem a bit flaky.Well it was war, and this is the data from the side that was overrun, so I guess that's what one would expect.

[MiloMorai]

Total USAAF losses in Europe January - August 1945: 4,851 aircraft

TOTAL
 
Combat and accident losses were 4088. What is not given is a breakdown of the combat and the accident losses for '44 and '45.

[gripen]

Perhaps these links help:

http://www.usaaf.net/digest/t159.htm

http://www.usaaf.net/digest/t160.htm

[MiloMorai]

Telling isn't it gripen, the losses due to enemy a/c and losses due to flak in 1945.

[Lusche]

moin

mmh i think only the 4 engine ar234 saw combat and the 2 engine ar234 was the first produktion los with the 262 engines jumo 004. but the jumos were needed for the 262 so thay switched the ar234 to the bmw engines with less power.

cu chris3

The BMW engines were available only very late in the war.

The only 4 engined BMW 003 version of the Ar 234 that got into series production was the Arado 234C-3. Assembly of that plane started in February '45. 19 were built total, but only 3 of them were delivered to IV./KG 76 for testing and training purposes.

[Angus]

Is there any data on the performance of that one?

[Lusche]

weight, empty: 6500kg
weight, takeoff: 11000kg
max speed: 852km/h (532mph)
cruise speed: 800km/h (500mph)
ceiling: 11000m
range: 1215km
bombload: 500-1500kg

[Angus]

whooofff! now that is something.
Rather afraid that it's going to be out of AH though.

[dirt911]

lets bust that darned box wide open and take a rell nice look