Observations on the current MA balance and a couple of random thoughts

[Karnak]

Taking the total kills and deaths for each unit as a crude representation of how often that particular unit is used, here are my feelings (emphasis on "feelings"):

The Panzer IV H has 17655 kills and has been killed 12907 times.  Total of 30562.
I use these once in a while.  This is our only tank, so its going to get a lot of use, especially in an environment that encourages the use of vehicles the way the beta terrain does.  Because of these circumstances, I have no problem with the Panzer IV H.

The Ostwind has 17295 kills and has been killed 12808 times.  Total of 30103.
I used these occasionally, but have not for some time.  I feel that the Ostwind is modeled VERY poorly at the moment.  The poor modeling coupled with the ability to spawn nearly in firing range of certain airfields has caused tremendous problems.  Fortunately Pyro has stated that they are aware of the issues with the Ostwind and I hope they fix it in the next patch/version.  I feel the Ostwind is broken and should be turned off until it is fixed.

The F4U-1C has 15428 kills and has been killed 10999 times.  Total of 26427.
I never fly this aircraft.  This aircraft bothers me a lot.  Not because it is hard to kill, it isn't.  Rather, because it is so bloody common.  The note "F4U" over an enemy con usually signifies a lousy fight, even if they don't HO (a valid tactic IMHO) but because the skill level of most F4U-1C pilots seems quite a bit below average.  There are some awesome F4U-1C pilots, but most suck.  It also drives down the variety in the MA and I get tired of seeing F4U after F4U.  I feel that the F4U-1C should not have been added, but it was, and we just have to deal with it.  Fw190D-9, La7, Ki84b and Spitfire F.MkXIV would dent its numbers but some of those might be worse monsters, making the cure worse than the disease.

The Spitfire Mk IX has 8795 kills and has been killed 9307 times.  Total of 18102.
This is my most common mount.  I think it is flown too often and is hurting diversity, though not as badly as the F4U-1C.  If the most popular aircraft had numbers totaling about 6000 less than the Spitfire IX, I think it make AH much more interesting, more diverse.  I think I feel much like the LW fans felt in the first tour of 1.03, when the Fw190A-5 was so popular.  There are players like me who like the Spitfire for itself and would fly it even if it were grossly overmatched, but many "opportunist" players fly the Spitfire, just as they drive the Ostwind and fly the F4U-1C and N1K2.

The N1K2 has 9432 kills and has been killed 8158 times.  Total of 17590.
I occasionally fly this aircraft.  This plane gives me headaches, I find it very hard to kill and easy to be killed by.  Like the F4U-1C they are too common, but certainly on a level below.  Like the Spitfire, the N1K2 is hurting diversity, but not as much as the F4U-1C.  I feel that many "opportunist" players fly this aircraft because of how easy it is to be passable in it.  Dedicated N1K2 flyers are a nightmare for me.

The P-51D has 6085 kills and has been killed 6399 times.  Total of 12484.
I rarely fly this plane.  The P-51 has a good total for a very popular and effective aircraft.  I feel that the P-51 is bringing plenty to AH and does not really have a downside to it.

The Bf 109G-10 has 5189 kills and has been killed 4563 times.  Total of 9752.
I occasionally fly this plane.  Like the P-51, the Bf109G-10 is a good ride that has definite strengths.  It increases diversity in AH.  I feel that the Bf109G-10 is a good fighter if used correctly.  Because it must be used correctly it does not lend itself very well to beginners.

The Typhoon IB has 5072 kills and has been killed 4326 times.  Total of 9398.
I occasionally fly this aircraft.  The Typhoon increases diversity, but some things seem suspect about it.  I feel that the flight model on it is a bit too good.  That and the fact that it has 4 Hispano cannon also cause this fighter to be used a bit by "opportunist" players.

The P-38L has 2833 kills and has been killed 4158 times.  Total of 7401.
I rarely fly this aircraft.  I don't think there is anything bad to be said about the inclusion of this fighter.  Its kill/death ratio looks pretty bad though.  That may be due to a large influx of new players this tour who grab the P-38 because of its looks, e.g. really neat looking fighter.  It also might be a bit undermodeled or may have been inadequate to cope with the fighters its dealing with in AH.  I feel that this fighter is a very good, all round aircraft.

The Yak-9U has 2293 kills and has been killed 2275 times.  Total of 4568.
I never fly this aircraft.  I think the Yak is underflown when I consider my impressions of it when flying offline.  I feel that players should fly this fighter more often, but it may be suffering from a "Communist" stigma.

The Fw190A-5 has 2366 kills and has been killed 2024 times.  Total of 4390.
I rarely fly this aircraft.  I like the roll rate and if used properly it is VERY effective.  I feel that this fighter is VERY under represented in AH.  It has a good ammo load, rolls like nothing else and has guns that kill rapidly if hits are scored.  The 4 cannon option is useless because of the pathetic amount of ammo the extra 2 cannon come with.

The P-47-D30 has 1722 kills and has been killed 2494 times.  Total of 4216.
I rarely fly this aircraft.  I'm not overly fond of the flight characteristics of the P-47 and I hate the rear view, but I love the 8 50 cals for killing AA guns.  It also carries a VERY impressive amount of ordinance.  I feel that, like the P-38, the P-47 may be suffering at the hands of new players and possibly a deficient flight model.

The C.205 has 1001 kills and has been killed 1328 times.  Total of 2329.
I never fly this aircraft.  I think that the C.205 has some very nice characteristics and would do very well in a 1942 or early '43 planeset.  Unfortunately for the C.205, we have a mid 1944 planeset.  I feel that the Italians could really use a better fighter, but due to their early exit from the war they may never get one.  I hope there is a viable one for them though.

A couple of other things that I want to talk about here:

Many players have noted the faulty stalls.  One thing to think about while talking about these (and I have noticed them as well) is that some aircraft came out of stalls very easily.  I can't speak for any besides the Spitfire, but I assume it was not unique in its ease of recovery.  According to the Chief Test Pilot of the Spitfire program, Jeffrey Quill, the Spitfire would bring itself out of a stall after  two and a half  (2 1/2) spins.  He said this in regards to Spitfire up to, at least, the Spitfire MkXIV.  He said that it had to be held in the spin.  I would not be surprise if other aircraft, such as the A6M5b, were also easy to recover from a spin.
That said, I know some aircraft, such as the F4U, were very difficult to recover from a spin.

The other thing that I would like to comment on is the players who will ONLY fly aircraft from one nationality.  I think its fine that you do this (I also think your depriving yourself some of the fun of AH, but that's your choice), but I don't think that it means HTC has to immediately give your nationality aircraft to do every job.  There are some VERY significant aircraft that have not yet been modeled that may be more suitable for that job and, unfortunately, be from a nationality other than your chosen nationality.  Please be gracious and allow HTC to model these other aircraft without being slammed for it.

Kiitos
-Karnak

[Fury]

The only thing I have to say about the Ostwind is that I think the current "new" beta arena has a lot to do with all the talk about it.  The ability to spawn within a few minutes of an enemy base has IMHO made this used in a more offensive manner.  I believe the "old" terrain (which Pyro has stated will be returned in the next tour <possibly tomorrow> ) with it's 15+ minute tank/Ostwind rides to enemy bases will result in more defensive use, as it was (IMHO) in tour 8.

Tour 8 stats:
The Ostwind has    11584 kills and has been killed 5122 times
The Panzer IV H has 4457 kills and has been killed 2860 times.

IMHO much more impressive numbers (as far as k/d) than tour 9.  Tour 8 was using the "old" (non-beta) map (if I remember correctly).  The Ostwind has been used twice as much this tour; the Panzer has been used over 3 times as much! <<edit: "used" is not a good term because kill/death scores do not actually imply "use".>>  Overall, ground vehicles have been used *much* more this tour.  I think it has more to do with the map setup than people just playing them more. I believe the Ostwind in tour 8 had such a high kill rate because it was used mostly as a defensive unit on base, shooting Jabo planes.  They are very effective at suprising a jabo plane at an airfield.

As for how it's killed, I can't say if it is correct or not from a Jabo standpoint since I can't strafe an Ostwind for crap (or an M16, M3, or tank for that matter!).  However, I have had no problems killing an Oswind using a tank (2-0) and even have a 1-1 in an M-3 vs. Ostwind.

I don't think they should remove the Ostwind.  I think the new map will make a big difference, and I'd like to see the stats at the end of tour 10 compared to tour 9.

Fury

[This message has been edited by Fury (edited 10-31-2000).]

[Ghosth]

The Panzer IV H has 17655 kills and has been killed 12907 times. Total of 30562.

The Ostwind has 17295 kills and has been killed 12808 times. Total of 30103.

Excuse me? These stats are virtually identical, yet the panzer is ok, but the Ostwind has major problems to be solved???

Spawn point issues are issues for ALL ground vehicles, not just Ostwinds.

[Karnak]

Ghosth,
Its OK because its killing Panzers, Ostwinds, M-3s, M-16s and a few aircraft.  Its not wiping out airfields and HQs all by itself.  It IS easy prey for any Typhoon or F4U-1C that happens upon it.

In the current terrain vehicles are going to be used a lot.  They will have a lot of kills and deaths.  However, it is not the kill and death total that made me feel that way.

For me to have objected to the Panzer, it would have had to be causing a problem or dominating the other things in its class.  However, it is not causing a problem and there are no other things in its class, no T-34/85 or M3A4 to compete in the Main Battle Tank role.

The final note is that this is how I feel.  You're welcome to feel differently.

Sisu
-Karnak

[flakbait]

It's true that all ground vehicle spawn points are too close to bases. Look at A3; the North spawn point from V32 places you on a hill. Within 4 minutes you can be shelling the field. I've done it.

As for the Ostwind. This is a vehicle used for everything, but which was rarely used for anything. Only 43 to 50 were made, depending on which production source you use. A Schutzenpanzerwaggen [half-track] mounting a 37mm gun would have been a lot less trying on the game. And on tempers. SPWs are similar to the M3, and can be killed just as easily. I've rarely seen an M16 here lately; with one exception being an assault on A4 done earlier today when two popped up.

I believe the C.205 and C.202 are flown so rarely is due to two things. First is fuel burn rate, which almost requires a half tank just to get up around 5,000 feet. Second is the weaponry, which is not the C.205's fault. This problem with armament is most likely due to people becomming used to the near instant kills awarded when using Hispano cannons. We know why this problem with Hispano guns exists; combined ammunition types.

I've flown the La-5 in several fights, and have a few kills with it. I place it in the same category as the Bf-109. Great at nothing, but good at everything in capable hands. For the average fight, I see more N1K2's and F4U-1C's than anything else. I mostly fly a D-model Corsair, with occasional hops in a P-51 or La-5. Spitfires I don't fly often, nor do I use a Typhoon much. The same goes for 109s and 190s. I stick to what I know, in this case the D-model Corsair or La-5.

I believe the following must be done to correct a few flaws:

1) Remove the Ostwind, and replace it with a 37mm armed SPW. This will prevent it's use in the offensive role, due to much weaker armor and increase vulnerability to fire of all types.

2) Settle on a single ammunition type for each aircraft gun instead of using combined ammunition. This would solve the Hispano problem entirely.

3) Go over the N1K2 flight model. There may be bugs in it, or possibly a calculation was off in computing some aspect of its performance.

4) Re-work the BETA terrain spawn points for vehicles. Place them farther back from fields in order to create a longer transit time. This allows defenders adequate time to mount a defense, instead of being over-run constantly.

I agree the Ostwind is not being used in defense only. I've watched people level forward fields using a single Ostwind, and they still had ammunition to spare on enemy aircraft.

As for the F4U-1C, I believe the Hispano problem with combined ammunition is the culprit. And the reason so many show up in the arena. If the Hispano problem was fixed in some way, the F4U-1C would not show up as often as it does. The same goes for the N1K2 if there is indeed something amiss with the flight model. Currently, the N1K2 only loses 50mph airspeed while pulling 6+ Gs for 180 degrees from a start speed of 300mph. This is ludicrous. As I am aware, the only other aircraft capable of repeating this performance is a modern jet fighter.

Every game, or sim, has problems. The above, I believe, are the current problems we deal with. Every one of which can be fixed in some way, shape or form.



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Flakbait
Delta 6's Flight School
"My art is the wings of an aircraft through the skies, my music the deep hum of a prop as it slices the air, my thrill the thunder of guns tearing asunder an enemy plane."
Flakbait
19 September 2000

[StSanta]

Nice writeup karnak, well put.

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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"

[Vermillion]

I think I have to agree with Ghosth on the Panzer vs Ostwind issue. If they're being used almost at the same rate, how is one "Dweebery" and the other is "ok". Seems to me that the two are linked in the issue.

Karnak, the average player in every sim, will go for what they view as the "best" plane in the game, to make up for a real or percieved lack of skill. Thats why we see mostly F4U-1C's, N1K2's, and Spitfires. There's always going to be a top 2 or 3 "best" aircraft that the masses will gravitate too, and the only promote diversity, is to offer an incentive to fly those other aircraft. Perhaps this is what the Perk system will be. If you fly a "nonpopular" plane ,such as the Yak or 190A5 in your example, you get a multiplier to your perk point score. Thereby "bribing" people to fly a more diverse plane set.

Flakbait, the current Osty is quite vulnerable to getting its turret disabled by even light MG's if strafed. The problem is that the Ostie usually kills the attacker first. Armor isn't a problem.

And I have to really disagree with your theory on ammunition.

Lets take your approach and decide that we will load AP ammunition only in the aircraft. The Hispano will still have much more armor piercing and kinetic damage capability than the MGFF, MG151/20, Type 99/2, and ShVak. Its relative lethality to all the cannons types would remain the same.

Lets go the other way too, and decide to load only HE ammunition in the aircraft. The Hispano will still have much more explosive damage and kinetic damage capability than the MGFF, MG151/20, Type 99/2, and ShVak. Its relative lethality to all the cannons types would remain the same.

The only way that it would effect anything, is if you start to pick and choose ammunition types per plane, and restricting certain gun types to one type of ammuniton. Like in RAM's approach to give the MG151/20 mine ammunition and the hispano AP only.

But this approach is even less realistic than the "combined" ammunition types approach, because we can pretty definitely prove that all sides used mixed belt ammunition (and this mixed ammunition ratio changed) thru most of the war.

Face the facts guys, the Hispano was easily the most effective and lethal 20mm cannon deployed during WWII. The only gun that comes close was the Japanese HO-5 20mm, that we haven't seen in AH yet.

Relative Lethality is relative, hence the name, and playing with the ammunition isn't going to change that unless you "cheat", by applying different rules.

PS:  The one thing I dont' understand, is that people commonly complain about how lethal the F4U-1C is, but they don't complain about the very same guns on the Spitfire. Which I personally find as deadly in engagements as the -1C.


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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[popeye]

"PS: The one thing I dont' understand, is that people commonly complain about how lethal the F4U-1C is, but they don't complain about the very same guns on the Spitfire."

The difference may be in the AMOUNT of ammo in each.  The -1C has enough ammo for liberal use of spray and pray, so it's going to get more kills with less skill than the Spit.

[funked]

Yak-9U and La-5FN would be flown more if we had realistic fuel consumption.  With the "gameplay" fuel burn rate multiplier, these two planes need to RTB as soon as they reach combat altitude.  In WW2 these were offensive fighters, sweeping enemy territory of Nazi fighters so the Sturmoviks could do their deadly work.  But in here the fuel multiplier makes them defenders mostly.  

[Ghosth]

Karnak, If you had simply started a thread trashing the Ostwind chances are that I would not have said anything.

Fact remains you used statistics to back up your point for the ostwind, but ignored those same statistics for the panzer.

So it's ok to have ground vehicles that kill other ground vehicles. (Panzer) But it's not ok to have a ground vehicle than can kill planes???????

Sorry but the way I look at it is that the F4u-c killed me hundreds of times since 1.02.
The osty is just getting some back & leveling the playing field. Don't want to get killed by an osty, don't roll from a field under attack/don't attack them.

I expect sometime today that we'll go back to the other terrain which will solve the spawn point problem for a month.

Lets wait & see what the numbers say after this next tour and what HTC comes up with  ok???




[This message has been edited by Ghosth (edited 11-01-2000).]

[Pongo]

Karnak. An excellent post. I aggree with the whole thing.
Verm. I wonder if you play the same game as regards the ostwind...
verm
tour 9
verm has 1 kill and has been killed 1 time against the Ostwind
tour 8
verm has 0 kills and has been killed 3 times against the Ostwind
tour 7
verm has 0 kills and has been killed 0 times against the Ostwind.


Then I see that you dont. Please shut up about it. You know dick about the ostwind. Saying stupid things like you can take it out with mgs is beyond the pale as far as hypocricy goes. Yes it can be killed. Most players in the MA will not even consider atacking it with fighters. Some guys have the moves down to bomb it effectivly. I have hit them with 3-4 long burst from hispanos from high angles and not stoped them fireing .
Please refrain from commenting on them or prefix your comments with"I have never fought one but.."

Pongo
tour 9
pongo has 39 kills and has been killed 39 times against the Ostwind.

The reason the panzer is used so much now is that it can stop the ostwind...Thats what medium tanks where for..to defend bases from anti aircraft tanks...
in the panzer vs the ostwind i am 21 - 3
But you often cant get a panzer were you need to. So you have to try with planes..And that is very tough...

[Vermillion]

Pongo, maybe you should just check your facts before you run your mouth.

I know better than to try and strafe out Ostwinds. Why?

Tour 9: Verm has 13 kills and has been killed 3 times in the Ostwind.
Tour 8: Verm has 6 kills and has been killed 2 times in the Ostwind.

I see it from the other side. Thats why.

Nope I don't have sortie numbers in the hundreds, check my total sortie count, its low in all three of the past tours.

Again, you may ask the question why? Because I spend my evenings running the Scenario Corps, and planning for Afrika Corps. Not furballing in the MA.

So get off the high and mighty attitude.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 11-01-2000).]

[Zigrat]

verm
for sure the spit V never used HE ammo
probably not the typhoon very much either, i dont think it became commom until '43 and even then from what i have read most brits still used AP

even if htey idnt, the current german ammo seems to be HE to me (look at its ballistic coefficient) compared to the hispano round (look at its ballistic coefficient) from that test on the bbs.. right now the hispano has the trajectory of a AP round while mg151 that of a HE.

[Karnak]

Vermillion and Ghosth,
I explained my feelings regarding the Panzer and Ostwind as best as I could in my 2nd post in this thread.  I wasn't basing my feeling solely on kill/death totals or ratios.  I was basing them on a number of things, chief among them, when dealing with the Ostwind, is the fact that its being used as a Main Battle Tank.  Its being used that way because its better at it than the Panzer in all cases except for when confronting a Panzer.  It is far better at eliminating bases than the Panzer is.  It should not be.
I have no problem with its ability to kill aircraft.  Its an anti-aircraft vehicle after all.

In my opinion, it would be fine if the Hispano cannon just carried AP ammo.  I'm not sure that this would have as much an effect as many think.  Buildings and bombers are about the only things that would gain from that change.  Fighters are so compact that hitting them with a non-explosive 20mm shell will usually still have catastrophic consequences.  Against armor they might even be more lethal, if it is currently averaged between HE and AP.

Sisu
-Karnak

[Vermillion]

Zigrat, Pyro has indicated in past posts that he used a consistent method in applying the "combined" ammunition approach.

In other words he didn't use AP flight characteristics for the Hispano, and used HE characteristics for the MG151.

Personally, I would love to see each plane modeled with mixed belts (or user selectable AP, mixed, or HE)  and each round type with its  own different characteristics. But Pyro has said that he isn't going to do it that way.

Give the man some credit, why would he intentionally alienate part of his customer base, with some kind of intentional Anti-Luftwaffe conspiracy?

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 11-01-2000).]