Author Topic: Skuzzy, Is a supercharged NIC worth it?  (Read 1788 times)

Offline ROC

  • Aces High CM Staff (Retired)
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7700
Skuzzy, Is a supercharged NIC worth it?
« on: December 21, 2008, 10:45:59 PM »
http://www.killernic.com/products/killerm1.aspx

Skuzzy, I am going to invest in more toys shortly, and I am trying to figure out if upgrading my network card should be a higher priority than a second graphic card.  Does a card such as the one I linked to "really" make a difference?

Currently, I am running:
ASUS M2N-SLI Motherboard
AMD Athlon 6000+ Dual Core
3 Gigs CL4 Memory
NvIdia GeForce 9800GT
WinXP SP3
Cable 10mb Down, 2mb Up
Standard 1394 Net Adapter with the NvIdea NForce Network Controller

The board comes with GB Lan, not sure whether a pci-express network card like above would be a better investment than a second card.  If I had to pick one, what would be the greater benefit?


ROC
Nothing clever here.  Please, move along.

Offline Fulmar

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3936
      • Aces High Movie Database
Re: Skuzzy, Is a supercharged NIC worth it?
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2008, 12:18:58 AM »
It's been discussed a few times in the Hardware/Software section.  If you can find a better waste of money for $150-170, let me know.  But this one takes the cake.  Your ISP is going to determine your ping/packet loss more so than anything else.  The cpu utilization of onboard NICs is so negligible its not worth measuring.
In game callsign: not currently flying
Flying off and on since Warbirds
Aces High Movies available at www.derstuhl.net/ahmd2 - no longer aceshighmovies.com - not updated either

Offline Skuzzy

  • Support Member
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 31462
      • HiTech Creations Home Page
Re: Skuzzy, Is a supercharged NIC worth it?
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2008, 05:59:14 AM »
It's just a scam ROC.
Roy "Skuzzy" Neese
support@hitechcreations.com

Offline eagl

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6769
Re: Skuzzy, Is a supercharged NIC worth it?
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2008, 06:59:03 AM »
If you just want to spend money, just get an nvidia GTX 260.  $200 and it'll run faster than 9800s in SLI.  If you want to recapture 2-3% of your cpu utilization, get a soundcard.  I read *somewhere* that the audigy2 ZS is about as good as it gets for bang/buck, but I'm not 100% sure.
Everyone I know, goes away, in the end.

Offline ROC

  • Aces High CM Staff (Retired)
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7700
Re: Skuzzy, Is a supercharged NIC worth it?
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2008, 09:16:06 AM »
Thanks, didn't think there would be that much of an improvement, figured I'd ask those who knew.

ROC
Nothing clever here.  Please, move along.

Offline OOZ662

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7019
Re: Skuzzy, Is a supercharged NIC worth it?
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2008, 07:30:23 AM »
I read *somewhere* that the audigy2 ZS is about as good as it gets for bang/buck, but I'm not 100% sure.

I'm definetly loving mine. Nary a problem in what, 5 years I've had it? Except that they buried the drivers for it deep, deep in their website. Took me half an hour to find last time.
A Rook who first flew 09/26/03 at the age of 13, has been a GL in 10+ Scenarios, and was two-time Points and First Annual 68KO Cup winner of the AH Extreme Air Racing League.

Offline Tigger29

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2568
Re: Skuzzy, Is a supercharged NIC worth it?
« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2008, 10:30:46 PM »
http://www.killernic.com/products/killerm1.aspx

Skuzzy, I am going to invest in more toys shortly, and I am trying to figure out if upgrading my network card should be a higher priority than a second graphic card.  Does a card such as the one I linked to "really" make a difference?

Currently, I am running:
ASUS M2N-SLI Motherboard
AMD Athlon 6000+ Dual Core
3 Gigs CL4 Memory
NvIdia GeForce 9800GT
WinXP SP3
Cable 10mb Down, 2mb Up
Standard 1394 Net Adapter with the NvIdea NForce Network Controller

The board comes with GB Lan, not sure whether a pci-express network card like above would be a better investment than a second card.  If I had to pick one, what would be the greater benefit?





Here's the deal.  Your cable speed is 10mb... a far cry from the 1000mb that card can support.  Even if you were to install it, you're not going to notice any improvements in game performance.  The network is only as good as it's weakest link.  Even most website's aren't going to reach the 10mb speed of your cable connection.

The only benefits to a 1gb network connection would be transferring files from one local computer to another (if the other computer was 1gb as well)... OR if your internet connection was much, much faster and you downloaded multiple files all the time.

As far as the performance increase of having an add-on network adaptor vs. the onboard adapter... negligible if any.  The on board network doesn't use the same kinds of resources that onboard sound or video uses.

Really the only reason to buy this card would be anticipating the need to upgrade in the future as internet speeds increase... BUT you could wait and by then find this sort of thing for a fraction of the cost at that time...

Offline eagl

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6769
Re: Skuzzy, Is a supercharged NIC worth it?
« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2008, 08:51:07 AM »
Hmm, some mis-information and ignorance here.

The killer nic doesn't make that much of a difference, but it's not necessarily supposed to increase bandwidth anyhow.  The whole point of the killer nic is to eliminate the computer itself as a source of network latency and bottlenecks.  Even a perfectly tuned and tweaked computer will occasionally interrupt or delay network activity when it does other stuff like access the hard drive or do something that suddenly loads up the cpu and hits the memory bus hard.  The killer nic has a computer right on the nic, so the computer can shove the network data right to the card and then the card shoves it down the pipe no matter what else the computer is doing.

This reduces any network stuttering induced by your own computer.  Is it significant?  That depends on how bogged down your own computer is.  It certain can aggravate an already marginal connection.

That's how it's supposed to work.  Does it actually do that?  Well, every review I read said that it works as intended, however the performance gains are marginal at best and only a professional twitch gamer would notice the difference.  The AH servers and client have network smoothing code built in, so it seems unlikely you'd see that much of a difference in AH.  I will say however that if I was into AH dueling in a big way, having a better network connection than your opponent is a decided advantage so a hard-core AH gamer might find room in his/her budget for one of these cards because it just might provide that half-second advantage that might make the difference in a duel.
Everyone I know, goes away, in the end.

Offline Lusche

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23931
      • Last.FM Profile
Re: Skuzzy, Is a supercharged NIC worth it?
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2008, 10:03:28 AM »
I will say however that if I was into AH dueling in a big way, having a better network connection than your opponent is a decided advantage so a hard-core AH gamer might find room in his/her budget for one of these cards because it just might provide that half-second advantage that might make the difference in a duel.


Now that makes me gettin curious.. how is having a "better" network connection an advantage over an ordinary one?
Steam: DrKalv
E:D Snailman

In November 2025, Lusche will return for a 20th anniversary tour. Get your tickets now!

Offline Skuzzy

  • Support Member
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 31462
      • HiTech Creations Home Page
Re: Skuzzy, Is a supercharged NIC worth it?
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2008, 10:51:43 AM »
Hate to tell you this eagl, but every decent network controller since the DEC20010 (circa 1995) has had an on-chip micro-processor which handles the network stack as well as the bus master transfers of data.  Most of the better ones from Broadcom also have a significant amount of on-chip buffering as well.

If you look at the source code for network drivers, that are pretty simple these days as the hardware does all the work for you.
Roy "Skuzzy" Neese
support@hitechcreations.com

Offline Vulcan

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9913
Re: Skuzzy, Is a supercharged NIC worth it?
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2008, 03:43:58 PM »
Hate to tell you this eagl, but every decent network controller since the DEC20010 (circa 1995) has had an on-chip micro-processor which handles the network stack as well as the bus master transfers of data.  Most of the better ones from Broadcom also have a significant amount of on-chip buffering as well.

If you look at the source code for network drivers, that are pretty simple these days as the hardware does all the work for you.

What Skuzzy said, in the old days if you didn't have a DEC chipset you noticed. Nowadays the only differences a high end card is going to give you is network-geek orientated features (vlan support, lacp on a multiport card, stuff like that).

You're better off spending more money on a half decent router/firewall. Cheap crappy routers are the biggest source of gaming problems.

Offline eagl

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6769
Re: Skuzzy, Is a supercharged NIC worth it?
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2008, 08:37:08 PM »
Hate to tell you this eagl, but every decent network controller since the DEC20010 (circa 1995) has had an on-chip micro-processor which handles the network stack as well as the bus master transfers of data.  Most of the better ones from Broadcom also have a significant amount of on-chip buffering as well.

If you look at the source code for network drivers, that are pretty simple these days as the hardware does all the work for you.

I know this Skuzzy, and I also know that even halfway decent buffering makes a huge difference, the same way it used to back in the day of ISA modems.  Still, you caveat it with "decent network controller" and I challenge you to prove to me that most people are using "decent" NICs.  Almost everyone I know is either using mobo onboard NICs (only moderately crappy) or truly crappy $3 realtek NICs (that happen to be wonderfully supported under linux because they are so simple/crappy).

The fact is that computer hiccoughs are going to either interrupt network activity or at the very least add latency.  You can test this yourself, with a simple ping test.  Put two nics in your computer.  Ping localhost, and then ping one nic from the other.  Latency will show up.  The killer nic is *supposed to* tie into the network stack low enough that latencies normally introduced by normal computer operation are minimized.  I read a good review that actually measured this, and the claims were technically true but as I said before, only noticeable in very specific scenarios (ie. lan gaming between two skilled twitch shooters).

If everyone on the network was using a high quality nic, then yea I'd say there would be no effective difference.  But who really goes out and buys even a $30 nic, when they can use the "free" onboard one or a $3 realtek controller that works just fine as far as they can tell?
Everyone I know, goes away, in the end.

Offline Skuzzy

  • Support Member
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 31462
      • HiTech Creations Home Page
Re: Skuzzy, Is a supercharged NIC worth it?
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2008, 07:10:32 AM »
eagl, quite frankly, those sites that came to the conclusion this card is doing something great made it easy for me to know which sites can be trusted and which ones cannot.  I know too much about all this to by into the marketing of this product.  And that is what this product is all about.

Some of the early marketing of this product actually claimed it could change the routes of the network connection to find better ones.  That was just a flat out lie.

Sorry, but this is smoke and mirrors at its finest.

Sure there are cheap NIC's out there, but no one has to spend over $30 to get a really good network card that will offload the CPU of the entire network stack, handle all data transfers, and include jumbo frame buffer support.
Roy "Skuzzy" Neese
support@hitechcreations.com

Offline eagl

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6769
Re: Skuzzy, Is a supercharged NIC worth it?
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2008, 10:06:26 AM »
eagl, quite frankly, those sites that came to the conclusion this card is doing something great made it easy for me to know which sites can be trusted and which ones cannot.  I know too much about all this to by into the marketing of this product.  And that is what this product is all about.

Well, if I was talking about "great" results, then you'd be right.  But I"m not even though you insist that I am.  I'm talking very specifically about actual in-use test results that say that the killer nic demonstrated reduced latency in specific situations however the benefits are not noticeable except for highly experienced twitch gamers.

Let me say that again.  The killer nic demonstrated reduced latency in specific situations however the benefits are not noticeable except for highly experienced twitch gamers.

My input specifically where it applies to AH is that the only AH gamer who might have ANY benefit from a killer nic is someone who is hardcore into dueling.  I have noted from experience in AH (including those dueling tournys) that an AH player with reduced latency can have a demonstrable advantage over his opponent.  In that situation, someone with a few hundred bucks to waste might find some benefit from one of these things.

That's it.  No claims of greatness, no blathering of obscure technical terms that mean nothing in terms of real performance.  Only the observation that the killer nic demonstrated in actual use a slight decrease in latency, and that the only people who might benefit from that are (as noted in the article  I read) highly experienced twitch gamers, and (my input) AH duelers with too much money on their hands.

Quote
Some of the early marketing of this product actually claimed it could change the routes of the network connection to find better ones.  That was just a flat out lie.

Who gives a flying ****?  I didn't mention this, neither did anyone else in this thread.  It was about what a killer nic would do in AH and routing was not brought up.  Sheesh :)

Quote
Sorry, but this is smoke and mirrors at its finest.

This is true unless you play twitch games for a living or are obsessed with dueling in AH, in which case I could see someone wasting a few hundred bucks on one in order to gain that microsecond advantage that can turn an HO shot into a killing front quarter shot.  Been there, done that, drex schooled my butt a bazillion times as I learned it.

Quote
Sure there are cheap NIC's out there, but no one has to spend over $30 to get a really good network card that will offload the CPU of the entire network stack, handle all data transfers, and include jumbo frame buffer support.

"Good enough" is good enough for pretty much everyone.  We are in complete agreement on that.  Our difference of opinion is if there is ANY measurable benefit from using the killer nic.  I argue that there is a measurable difference but it is so small that almost nobody would ever notice it even in controlled circumstances, and I have not and will not bring up the outlandish and false claims made by the killer nic promoters or it's fanbois.

As for me, I know that there are also distinct advantages to having a POOR network connection and if you know how to utilize certain aspects of the smoothing code, you can take advantage of it.  I just won't show anyone else how to do it since I'm not going to help others game the system :)
Everyone I know, goes away, in the end.

Offline eagl

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6769
Re: Skuzzy, Is a supercharged NIC worth it?
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2008, 10:11:28 AM »
Now that makes me gettin curious.. how is having a "better" network connection an advantage over an ordinary one?

If you have a better network connection than your opponent, you can see what he does before he sees what you do.  Your decisions can therefore be made very slightly faster than his.  Second by second it's only a slight difference, but over the duration of a dogfight being able to act before your opponent even sees your next move can be decisive.  It's one reason why the best fighter pilots in the world sometimes appear to be prescient - they notice very small things and act decisively on them before their opponent even notices anything has changed.  It's a huge advantage to be able to observe, orient, decide, and act (the classic OODA loop) before your opponent even recognizes what he's seeing.

It's the same in AH.  A very low latency and stable network connection means you see and can act on what your opponent does as soon as the server feeds you the info, while your opponent's FE is still showing what the server told him 200 or 500ms ago.

The flip side of this is that the smoothing code levels the playing field, but again I won't go into details.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2008, 10:13:49 AM by eagl »
Everyone I know, goes away, in the end.