(Sorry about the length of the post, just couldn't stop once I got started, so many questions and to much of it is speculation
There's just so many variations in ammo type and I've never really heard what type is modeled for each gun, if it's simplified for game play issues or whatnot, and would greatly appreciate some clarification by the HTC crew if it isn't to much trouble
)
I've been kinda confused on this whole cannon issue since the Panzer IVH came out...
Most cannon rounds came in at least one of the various forms of AP, such as AP, APC, APCBC, HVAP, and several others, such as discarding sabot rounds.
The there is the HE rounds, which come in Frag, HEAT, and normal HE, with variations of these. Granted HEAT and Frag are not really viable for smaller cannon rounds.
It's hard to say what is modeled "right" and "wrong" without knowing what type of rounds are which. Should the Spit carry AP rounds? Perhaps if tank busting... I'd like to think this is where the Tiff would have a great role in AH, perhaps being the only one with AP rounds, often a historical situation. What purpose would a F4U-1C have with AP? Anti-shipping I'd think, due to the lack of Japanese armor. Whether it carried AP rounds with frequency I don't know, It would be something good to look into.
I had always made the assumption that all cannon rounds are normal HE types, the most effective on airplanes, most with a primer that explodes on contact, or with a slight delay for maximum damage. For the fifty-caliber, regular Ball rounds. (And if this is the case, it is modeled quite well, against hard armor)
To justify this, I based on that, before tanks, there was no need for AP cannon rounds, because the HE is so much more effective vs planes. That's not saying a 20mm AP round isn't capable, they could snap a spar, punch through a firewall and take a good chunk of engine with it. If it doesn't hit something hard it passes through and through very easily makeing a small to moderate hole. But given that HE cannon shells, especially the Hispano's, with a larger explosive tip, are much better at a variety of duties, from ATA gunnery, and strafing soft targets like trucks and troops (A Hispano 20mm round can be much like a grenade) they are a much better all around round.
But largely this round is ineffective vs tanks, because of the explosion upon contact. The Hispano's much higher muzzle velocity would indicate much higher penetrationin AP rounds vs a Mauser (although 20mm AP on the mauser seems to be almost non-exiestant), and this is so, also due in part to a much heavier shell. But due to the lack of hardness of the HE round, penetration of each gun is not very good, especialy at the angles at which planes attack ground targets.
I think the problem lies in high explosive shells as a whole; the 75L48 on the Panzer IVH is capable of easily knocking out other PzIV's with even frontal shots. Due to lag at times, I've had trouble determining just how many shells it takes on average. While AP is normally two, I've killed other tanks with HE shells at ranges from d600 to around d4000. While this is very unlikely with a normal HE round because the force is not shaped at the armor (it takes the path of least resistence) It was possible to hit the top armor near the engine vents and cause catastrophic engine failures with a lucky shot...but largely HE rounds are ineffective tank rounds.
I'm not sure if this is because with how the high explosive round's damage model is done, or how the armor on the tank is done, or a combination of the two. I believe, but I really have no way of knowing what type of round AP round the 75L48 fires, I think it uses a APCBC, or armor piercing capped w/ ballistic cap. These were the most common AP rounds of both the axis and allies througout the war. These differ from smallier caliber cannon rounds (like the hispano and mauser, which are hardened AP rounds, I believe some Typhoon and Tempest squads used a higher velocity sub-core round) in that the APCBC has quite a bit of powder in the very inards of the shell. The cap protects the explosive from going off before penetrating the tank, the idea being the explosive would go off inside the tank killing the crew, igniting muntions, or fuel.
I'm curious on how destruction of a tank occurs within the parameters of the game, such as total kinetic energy delievered per shell (all the explosive plus the energy of the shell in flight I guess), accumulative kinetic energy delievered to an armor panal (I doubt this) or total kinetic energy delievered to an armor panal at one time (like 4 20mm guns hitting the same relative area at the same time)
The again it might be totally different, based only on shell velocity on impact and projectile weight. I dunno. Angle of the shell at which it hits the armor, hardness of the armor type, etc all play a big factor in penetration.
I really think alot of 20mm problems come from a "rough" physics model for the Panzer IV. Just noteing things like shell drop at range; the muzzle velocity (in the APCBC round) is somewhere around 2400-2500 fps, (varies on round type of course, but I calculated from 790m/s with a 6.8kg projectile weight) hurling a much heavier projectile then either the Hispanos or mausers
While the 75L48's 75mm round is more subject to wind resistence, it's weight and speed would seemingly make it flat shooting for nearly as far as any other round. Mostly this is true (In AP), the L48 was very flat shooting at ranges up to 1500 yards (requiring only about 2-5 degrees to this range) but in HE rounds it fell like a rock, which AH represents very well.
So anyway, I don't think (but again I am not anywhere near positive) that various or mixed ammo load outs are not modeled. The .50 AP round would have moderate succesfulness against the top armor of the Panzer IVH and at close range, the closer to 90 degrees, the better the chance of penetration, (and this goes for cannons too) but, I believe we have ball type .50, which would be largely ineffective against armor because of deformation and deflection, but a very good ATA gun because of the damage it creates when coming in contact with the plane's skin. If we do have .50 AP or mixed AP/Ball something seems a little off with armor penetration.
- Jig
[This message has been edited by Jigster (edited 08-07-2000).]
