Tank busting spitfires, the JOKE is getting old.......

[coyote]

 

Originally posted by Pyro:
Oops, in my question I meant armor piercing round from a .30-06.

As for the question of different types of rounds, we'll probably only do those for large caliber weapons with low rates of fire.  For high rate of fire weapons, we try to model the capabilities of the weapon in general based on the different ammo types used.  

Hey maybe Pyro can model a few more types of ammo for all aircraft guns in use and let us choosw which to carry, just like when arming a tank :-) Yea, I know, dream on.....

Anyway, if the Hispano is an AP round.... It seems to be acting like HE against A2A targets and AP against A2G targets :-( twin personalities :-(

[coyote]

Maybe we just need a better tank...... Panther at least......... Hunting Tiger would be awesome with its 120mm gun <gg>, yet a bit SLOW and no turret action..... It's a game play issue..... it takes about 20 min of bordom drivig to a target, just to get whacked by some tower squatter after you get within visual range of the field...... AT least make em use rockets and bombs to kill a tank :-(

Oh yea, why does a M3 ot M16 explode after taking a hit ANYWHERE from a tank? I hit the tread , the whole thing blows to pieces... some of us like to play with our food u know.......

[Jigster]

 

Originally posted by Pyro:
Oops, in my question I meant armor piercing round from a .30-06.

As for the question of different types of rounds, we'll probably only do those for large caliber weapons with low rates of fire.  For high rate of fire weapons, we try to model the capabilities of the weapon in general based on the different ammo types used.  

Ahh I see   Kinda explains why damage is so leathal.

My question is, do we have the AP velocity AND the KE from the explosive from the HE round? No wonder it was uber before!  

But...it is my belief that giving any cannon all the different capabilities of each round type it carried is rather bad, because round varied drastically by mission  

A good compromise would be to model only the HE type for all the other Hispano armed planes, and giving only the Typhoon the AP.
(Maybe a choice for loadout here?)

Thoughts?

It does seem like perhaps the .50's are off a bit, at least a chance of penetration would be possible. Under 150 yards, the top armor would be pretty vulnerable, however it's hard to get that close and at a good attack angle  

- Jig

TY for clearing it up

[Jigster]

 

Originally posted by Pyro:
You have a film of that or can you make one?  It would be useful in finding any inconsistencies, both in the model and in the stories.  

Q: If you stood on top of the Panzer IVH turret and fired an armor piercing round straight down into it, would you be able to penetrate?

A: In theory- yes.  In practice- who knows?  

I look at it this way:

What will a 30-06 AP going to do once it penetrates? Small caliber, very low projectile speed if it survives penetration, and no secondary damage because of the lack of size, speed or explosive.

it would probably plop down on the engine decking, where later the crew would pick it up with a wtf look  

I'll make it a point to film the Hispano planes attacking me  

I did get killed last night by a Fw-190 A5, both a F4U C and it were attacking for several minutes (loaded them with burp gun shells) F4U C got bored and flew off, after 10 passes and expending nearly all my MG34 burp gun ammo he killed me HO.

- Jig

[Pongo]

Funked.
I go on holidays and you start making arguments like you used to beat me up for...
Jig. Good stuff, please share your references with us. I have been searching for any reference to Hispanos in any Aircraft book I see for the last 7 months.

Quiz.
How much armour does a cannon have to penetrate to defeat a Panzer IV?
My numbers say 15mm hull roof and 16mm turrent roof.
Panther is very simular.
Guys that aint a ton...
The open fields of fire in this game REALLY
favour the aircraft. There is no equivilent terrain in NW europe.
Low down was way more dangerous in Normandy than it is here. There was light ack and small arms fire everywhere...and lots of low level hazards.
Am I saying the AH Hispano is perfect..nope
But I think that with an AP load out and the long bursts that this terrain and the ammo of the 1c make common, it can kill panzer IVs.
before we worry too much about the Hispanos capabilies vs the Panzer Iv we should consider how much the enviroment we play in differs from any historical enviroment.
The Panzer is deprived of its greatest defence. Natural cover.

So even if the Hispano is modeled accuratly.(I bet its pretty close) its effectiveness will be multiplied in the game.

[Fishu]

 

Originally posted by Pyro:
You have a film of that or can you make one?  It would be useful in finding any inconsistencies, both in the model and in the stories.  

I can also send a few films of testing this with F4u, Typhoon and Fw190.
H2H testing, but results were the same in main arena also and the one who was testing with me off-line, might also have films from main arena experiements.

6 Pz kills in main arena with cannons of F4u-1c in one flight (and thats just one, theres more similar kind for me when I was trying) does not give reason to doubt why H2H wouldn't have same results..

[Jigster]

 

Originally posted by Pongo:
Funked.
I go on holidays and you start making arguments like you used to beat me up for...
Jig. Good stuff, please share your references with us. I have been searching for any reference to Hispanos in any Aircraft book I see for the last 7 months.

Quiz.
How much armour does a cannon have to penetrate to defeat a Panzer IV?
My numbers say 15mm hull roof and 16mm turrent roof.
Panther is very simular.
Guys that aint a ton...
The open fields of fire in this game REALLY
favour the aircraft. There is no equivilent terrain in NW europe.
Low down was way more dangerous in Normandy than it is here. There was light ack and small arms fire everywhere...and lots of low level hazards.
Am I saying the AH Hispano is perfect..nope
But I think that with an AP load out and the long bursts that this terrain and the ammo of the 1c make common, it can kill panzer IVs.
before we worry too much about the Hispanos capabilies vs the Panzer Iv we should consider how much the enviroment we play in differs from any historical enviroment.
The Panzer is deprived of its greatest defence. Natural cover.

So even if the Hispano is modeled accuratly.(I bet its pretty close) its effectiveness will be multiplied in the game.

Pongo, check this link:

 http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/8217/fgun/fgun-in.html

The page is well documented on where the information comes from. There is a box towards the bottom for multiple parts of gunnery.

I've read through the whole site...found it quite good.

I'm going to go search for a few of those books he lists, I have several of them and the magazines as well.

- Jig

[Sorrow[S=A]]

Yes- I cannot understand why people have problems understanding this.

To quote from that page;

". Initially, solid AP ammunition was preferred, but later in the war a mixture of HE/I and SAP/I was introduced"

From what I have read initial cannons ONLY used an AP round, solid tungsten core with softer metal jacket. Was this "perfect" against planes? heck no! BUT it was 20 MM big- had a heck of alot of kinetic force to break things and a good ROF. Planes were said to have just "disintegrated" under them. HE rounds existed but AFAIK were NEVER popularly used. They had problems with early detonation not causing damage to targets. But more importantly most pilots were terrified to fly with them. They had a reputation (earned or not) that any sort of hit could detonate them and destroy the plane. Spit pilots were paranoid enough about ground fire that Buerling once recorded unloading an entire belt of them and replacing them with "normal" ammunition. I imagine many other pilots did the same.

[funked]

LOL Pongo!!!

[Jigster]

 

Originally posted by Sorrow[S=A]:
Yes- I cannot understand why people have problems understanding this.

To quote from that page;

". Initially, solid AP ammunition was preferred, but later in the war a mixture of HE/I and SAP/I was introduced"

From what I have read initial cannons ONLY used an AP round, solid tungsten core with softer metal jacket. Was this "perfect" against planes? heck no! BUT it was 20 MM big- had a heck of alot of kinetic force to break things and a good ROF. Planes were said to have just "disintegrated" under them. HE rounds existed but AFAIK were NEVER popularly used. They had problems with early detonation not causing damage to targets. But more importantly most pilots were terrified to fly with them. They had a reputation (earned or not) that any sort of hit could detonate them and destroy the plane. Spit pilots were paranoid enough about ground fire that Buerling once recorded unloading an entire belt of them and replacing them with "normal" ammunition. I imagine many other pilots did the same.

Tungsten was *NOT* a widely used round. Most was hardened steel. As muzzle velocity of guns increased, AP became more and more ineffective. Once the Germans developed the hollowed-out core HE round, most small caliber cannons other countries copied this  type and put it into widespread use. Also, the sub-core hardended steel rounds were not actually 20mm in diameter; up to 5mm less once the jacket destroys on impact.

Again if you'll look it refers to earlier in the war, before a good HE round was developed. At this point, explosions and premature detenation were quite common, but, by 1943 almost every country had much more reliable HE rounds. I believe the wide-spread use of HE rounds was due to a much more effective round on a variety of targets, from troops, trucks, buildings, gun installations, and light armor.

And to the effect of pilots being scared of round detenation within the ammo box...this is true for any type. Even .50 and .30 cal ammo will go off like a string of firecrackers if the ammo cans get hit.
From what I've heard the British pilots loved the HE round because of the hitting power it had; capable of even taking down the heavily armored rear of the Fw with very few shots. It's "wing sawing" power was very high in comparison to the AP types, becuase a direct hit was not always needed. The secondary damage is very high, anything from detonating fuel to ammo cans, shrapnel, and utter destruction of the lift surface.

- Jig

[SpyHawk]

A cool suggestion was made further up this thread. Make it so we can choose AP or HE (or incindiary-AP or HE, et al..) when we choose our gun setup in the hangar. I think it would be pretty cool.

later guys.

[Ghosth]

Couple of points I'd like to make.

Jigster points out that after 1943 the HE round was pretty much in service everywhere for the 20mm. Since almost all planes in AH are 1943 or later why is the HS 20mm AP round modeled at all?

On the F4U-C, what ammo did it use? Anyone?
Considering how few saw combat and when why does it have the AP ammo?

I have seen a lot of air to tank attacks from the external view of a tank. Everytime someone strafes me I see hit flashes from the rounds that actually hit the tank. I also see hit flash's and hear pings from rounds that hit the ground close to the tank.

Why?

Last is an even bigger puzzler (imo).
Why when in a tank if the turret is damaged do ALL guns stop working?

Seems to me that if the turret is damaged either A it's jammed & won't turn or elevate. B Main gun is somehow damaged, optics are damaged, etc, to keep main gun from fireing.

Even if turret was blown comepletly off the tank the hull MG should still work. Shouldn't it?
 
I realise that tanks are going to play 2nd fiddle to aircraft, and thats ok. However it would be nice to see some dedicated Air to ground attack planes designed for tank busting. Along with improved damage modeling (when you can afford the time).


------------------
Maj Ghosth
XO 332nd Flying Mongrels
Scenario Corp, AH Trainer Corp

[Cobra]

 

Originally posted by Ghosth:
Couple of points I'd like to make.

 Even if turret was blown comepletly off the tank the hull MG should still work. Shouldn't it?
 
I realise that tanks are going to play 2nd fiddle to aircraft, and thats ok. However it would be nice to see some dedicated Air to ground attack planes designed for tank busting. Along with improved damage modeling (when you can afford the time).

If the turret gets blown off, you can bet that tank is a total loss, including the occupants.  But it would be neat to have graphics showing the turret exploding off or the ammo in the tank cooking off if you hit it right.

I agree 100% with your last paragraph.

Cobra

[Fishu]

 

Originally posted by Ghosth:
I have seen a lot of air to tank attacks from the external view of a tank. Everytime someone strafes me I see hit flashes from the rounds that actually hit the tank. I also see hit flash's and hear pings from rounds that hit the ground close to the tank.

I have seen and tested this too..
Tanker guy hears all those 20mm hits near by.
This tells that those rounds are NOT AP, but HE!
..or then we have incredible AP rounds digging into the soft ground and blowing up there by some mysterious kinetic energy stuff. (i bet i hear some dozen replies why AP would blow up like HE when hitting ground.. cough cough, thumbs up for those whos afraid of their hispano losing super multirole capabilities)

Never came to think mentioning about close by ground hits earlier.

Well, good must win evil, so Hispano must have multirole AP/HE bullets, ok.

For those excusing Hispano having mixture of ammo (AP/HE/AP/HE... etc.), I must already put up a question, why it isn't so in other guns?

[Pyro]

 

Originally posted by Ghosth:

On the F4U-C, what ammo did it use? Anyone?

     

Ammo selection is not just based on what's the most effective.  Supply is the overriding factor, this in turn being influenced by things like cost and manufacturing capability.  When I go shooting, I mostly fire low quality FMJ rounds and for good reason.

Since some people are getting whacked out over ammo types, let me reiterate what I said above. We'll probably only model different individual rounds for low rof, large caliber weapons.  For high RoF weapons, most circumstances involve multiple hits so we just condense the various ammo properties into one set.  



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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations