G limitations on guns and engines

[RipChord929]

Breda's MGs were completely unreliable, they could jam very easily and without pulling -/+ G's .. they were built like s**t... I heard that Yak's 37mm couldn have been fired more than 2 / 3 rounds per time, the overheating could have led to a "gun barrel failure" (forgive my awful english).. And I'm not a chief in weapons, indeed I dont know anything about them.

But I would be more interested in engines' realism. Most of them used to overheat at 100% throttle and then experienced failures. WEP was very dangerous if engaged.. (oh and the wep engagement, isnt it too much arcade-style?).  I would also add something about "our" engines reliabilty:  they are perfect! I suggest some kind of randomized engine "failure" or "performance decrease" based on a statistic calculus about how much time you fly, not in a single plane (may be for long range bombers in mission tho) but for the whole time u're playing AH.  We already have that!

I know most of the Gamers wouldnt like this, it's a provocation.

just some of my intricated thoughts. Throw me tomatoes but not rocks pls

<S>
chewi

Yep, You are right.... There should be a random "reliability factor" in the game..
Some of the equipment used and loved in this game, wasn't so neat and tidy in reality..
Engines breakdown, get oil leaks, loose oil pressure.. Even NEW ones do... When life
and death are the stakes, the pilots would run them to the ragged edge for power...
And especially units that have seen many hours of use in combat, reliability suffers!!!

LOL, and a single engine fighter that shuts his engine down in combat, LOLOLOL!!!
Runnin with mixture leaned out, Mags at full advance, stuffer at max overdrive,
and he just shuts down his engine.... Over enemy territory, with the sky full
of badguys, tryin to kill him......Yeah RIGHT!!! Even if the plane was equipped
with a self starting feature.. With the engine running at the ragged edge for power,
the chances of a restart, would be EXTREMELY unlikely...

LOL, worse than that.. Many of the fighters in this game, had no electric starters
ANYWAY!!! Batteries and big honkin electric motors just weigh too much... So
they used a handcrank or blackpowder cartridge to spin the inertia starter...
I suppose they have a handy mechanic to stand on the wing and crank that
starter while pullin Neg G, right?   LOL!!!

But this game has a MIRACLE START BUTTON... Works EVERY TIME!!! LOL..
Gotta be the GAMIEST thing in the game!!!

I know, I know, lighten up, its just a game.. LOL!!!
Whatever, doesn't matter... Just pointing out a pertinent fact...

RC

[BnZs]

I agree that engine shutdown in dogfighting is highly "gamey", however, if it makes you feel any better, it has been demonstrated that shutting down the engine does not produce a significant increase in deceleration vs. simply closing the throttle in-game.

Yep, You are right.... There should be a random "reliability factor" in the game..
Some of the equipment used and loved in this game, wasn't so neat and tidy in reality..
Engines breakdown, get oil leaks, loose oil pressure.. Even NEW ones do... When life
and death are the stakes, the pilots would run them to the ragged edge for power...
And especially units that have seen many hours of use in combat, reliability suffers!!!

LOL, and a single engine fighter that shuts his engine down in combat, LOLOLOL!!!
Runnin with mixture leaned out, Mags at full advance, stuffer at max overdrive,
and he just shuts down his engine.... Over enemy territory, with the sky full
of badguys, tryin to kill him......Yeah RIGHT!!! Even if the plane was equipped
with a self starting feature.. With the engine running at the ragged edge for power,
the chances of a restart, would be EXTREMELY unlikely...

LOL, worse than that.. Many of the fighters in this game, had no electric starters
ANYWAY!!! Batteries and big honkin electric motors just weigh too much... So
they used a handcrank or blackpowder cartridge to spin the inertia starter...
I suppuse they have a handy mechanic to stand on the wing and crank that
starter while pullin Neg G, right?   LOL!!!

But this game has a MIRACLE START BUTTON... Works EVERY TIME!!! LOL..
Gotta be the GAMIEST thing in the game!!!

I know, I know, lighten up, its just a game.. LOL!!!
Whatever, doesn't matter... Just pointing out a pertinent fact...

RC

[Krusty]

As long as the prop is still spinning (wind force on blade pitch keeps it so) you can restart it in real life. Even Hitech himself commented on this. Forget to switch tanks, the engine sputters, you jump to switch them and start it back up again.

[Guppy35]

Just food for thought. 

From"Twelve to One" the 5th AF fighter pilots bible.

Allen Hill, pilot of "Hills Angels" in the 80th FS

"In cases where you are really latched, it doesn't matter much what you do, but do something and do it violently"

Cy Homer of the 80th

"When caught just above the tree tops or water at slow speed, you can only hope to throw his aim off by jerking and skidding, at the same time striving for altitude.  Drop full flaps if neccessary--anything to make him overshoot."

"If you find your tail is dirty, then it is time to get violent at the controls"



One man's stick stir....



As for gun jamming.  Are we going to add icing to the game then?  You hit a certain random alt where your guns ice up or your wings do?  Ice forms on the air intake? 

I think it's always dangerous ground when the 'realisim' bit gets thrown in.  None of this is real.  Can you imagine the whines from guys if their guns jam?  Since we're not really dying and we get a new plane of choice every time...

The new guys will learn, or they'll move on.  It's the nature of the beast.  I'm hard pressed to find that HTC's set up a bad one right now.  It seems to offer enough for us history/airplane nuts to enjoy ourselves while introducing that world to other folks for the first time.

I'd work harder at not letting it get to you.  It's just not worth it.

[FYB]

I completely agree, there were many cases in which both P51b's and P51d's would jam guns when popping -G's against 262's and in many cases it led to an shameful defeat. 

They did fix the gun jams, right? The stories of gun jams ended at 1945 and i can't remember what month.

-FYB

Bad info, scratch that.

-FYB

[FLOTSOM]

ok well here is an idea, admittedly it would have its issues and maybe its not the brightest thing ive ever thought of, but.......

what if they could open an ultra realistic arena?

i know every reason for not opening other types of special arenas would apply, so you dont need to list them here.

my point is that if they had an arena designed sort of like the old DA but with as close to reality flying as is possible. strictly obeying all of the rules of reality, physics and history that can be programed into this arena. the random equipment failure, the gun jamming foul weather fall out of the sky when not flying properly rip off wings flaps ect ect.

at the least it would make one hell of a new DA arena. then all the uber pilots who think they are really great will have a truer place to prove themselves in. going to DA will actually hold some value again.

you could increase the difficulty without risking losing any of the people who are here for the game as it is.

if AH was programmed as close to real flying as humanly possible, most players would take more than a month just learning how to get off the runway. people would get frustrated and quit, AH would never keep enough of a new customer base to stay in business.

but to set aside an arena specifically for it would add many new dimensions of game play difficulty for the players who have been here awhile. it would give then all the new challenges of learning a far more difficult and intensive game without having to go anywhere. if the player decided after trying it that they didn't like it then it is just a matter of quitting the arena and entering  one of the traditional ones.

i think it would be fun to try out.

FLOTSOM

[BnZs]

Gup, like I say, the gamey part to me is ability to use negative Gs defensively with no hesitation whatsoever (You don't get a permanent blackout and I've never seen an airframe overstressed from neg Gs) or the rapid oscillation between them. Actual control deflection speeds and the physical limits that would be inherent there are already taken care of.  Full deflection takes a certain amount of time, and the "do not move controls so rapidly" message.

Just food for thought. 

From"Twelve to One" the 5th AF fighter pilots bible.

Allen Hill, pilot of "Hills Angels" in the 80th FS

"In cases where you are really latched, it doesn't matter much what you do, but do something and do it violently"

Cy Homer of the 80th

"When caught just above the tree tops or water at slow speed, you can only hope to throw his aim off by jerking and skidding, at the same time striving for altitude.  Drop full flaps if neccessary--anything to make him overshoot."

"If you find your tail is dirty, then it is time to get violent at the controls"



One man's stick stir....



As for gun jamming.  Are we going to add icing to the game then?  You hit a certain random alt where your guns ice up or your wings do?  Ice forms on the air intake? 

I think it's always dangerous ground when the 'realisim' bit gets thrown in.  None of this is real.  Can you imagine the whines from guys if their guns jam?  Since we're not really dying and we get a new plane of choice every time...

The new guys will learn, or they'll move on.  It's the nature of the beast.  I'm hard pressed to find that HTC's set up a bad one right now.  It seems to offer enough for us history/airplane nuts to enjoy ourselves while introducing that world to other folks for the first time.

I'd work harder at not letting it get to you.  It's just not worth it.

[Guppy35]

ok well here is an idea, admittedly it would have its issues and maybe its not the brightest thing ive ever thought of, but.......

what if they could open an ultra realistic arena?



FLOTSOM

OK we'll wake you at 3AM for briefing

I'm all for the history etc, but I doubt folks are going to sit around going through briefing, pre-flight, form up and all the other rituals that would go with really flying it like it was, or as much as a computer game would allow.

I think the scenarios are the best chance for that.  I can only point back to DGS and the long missions we flew escorting the bombers.  Great immersion, and great fun, but also probably not something that would keep an arena full day after day.

[FLOTSOM]

OK we'll wake you at 3AM for briefing

I'm all for the history etc, but I doubt folks are going to sit around going through briefing, pre-flight, form up and all the other rituals that would go with really flying it like it was, or as much as a computer game would allow.

I think the scenarios are the best chance for that.  I can only point back to DGS and the long missions we flew escorting the bombers.  Great immersion, and great fun, but also probably not something that would keep an arena full day after day.

i understand the briefing and pre flight check ect would be a little bit too much realism.

i was talking more about the flying itself. trying to take the gaminess out of the game. putting into place the randomness of reality.

i understand it wouldn't keep a full arena, but it would be great for small duels between squads or groups who want harder game play.

FLOTSOM

[Karnak]

How is an arbitrary loss due to a random number generated engine failure "harder"?  There was no skill that could change the outcome.

[warhed]

Someone said it before me, but something along the lines of Discos = Engine Failure

[Krusty]

I'm not advocating introducing random failures. I'm advocating failures based on pilot errors alone, negative G manuvers on engines and guns.

[Karnak]

I'm not advocating introducing random failures. I'm advocating failures based on pilot errors alone, negative G manuvers on engines and guns.

You're not, but RipChord did.  I was responding to that line of thought.

[Coogan]

As long as the prop is still spinning (wind force on blade pitch keeps it so) you can restart it in real life. Even Hitech himself commented on this. Forget to switch tanks, the engine sputters, you jump to switch them and start it back up again.

Yep, just like dumping the clutch on any given manual transmission automobile actually.  If you have the momentum to turn the motor, it should start.

Coogan

[Cobra516]

Great thread with some excellent reccomendations - I like the "ultra-realistic arena" idea for the seasoned vets.