Damage Models

[Kweassa]

This was posted before, but since 1.08 is due out shortly, I thought might as well post it once more. There has been some whines, gripes and just questions about damage models.

 We read about all sorts of info concerning damage, and wonder to ourselves "Hey, Johnson survived a barrage of more than 150 shots into his P-47. Are the AH planes in retrospect applying that sort of durability correctly?"

 I guess not. And sometimes those 'miraculous' powers of taking damage can be considered as just that - a miracle, other times we can't help but wonder if the damage modeling needs some upgrading to do. People have openly put out their frustrations on the P-38, the 'legend' of the 1-ping engine death still lingers..

 I think this has to do with the fact that current AH damage modelling cannot quite describe the difference between "no damage", "light damage", "heavy damage" and "total destruction" appropriately. When most planes get hit, they either fly off with no damage, or end up with some parts falling off completely.

 A plane might take just 1 bullet inside and explode, and it might take hundreds of bullets and survive(like Johnson's P-47). If these cases are all very rare incidents, where are the 'in-betweens' to be seen in AH?

 If damage was represented as according to it would, it might help solve some problems and questions ppl have about damage modelling. A wing could be peppered by shots, but the damage could vary from harmless nicks and holes, weakend frame, punctured wing, cranky ailerons.. to something more serious - aileron cables cut off, total destruction of ailerons of flaps, parts of wing cracked and falling off.. and ultimately "wing destruction".

 This of course, would take lot of sophisticated programming.. and we do not expect to see a sophisticated model like this, but still, I think its time we had something a bit better. Varying damage models, so we might actually will be able to see maybe a P-47 live up to its name: heavy damage, and maybe some control surfaces clogged, snared and etc.. but the frame remains intact, and a pilot might be able to manage it back home.

 Vary the damage models! Put in a difference between "no damage" and "total destruction"! Categorize damage so it might simulate the conditions of "no damage" "light damage" "heavy damage" and "destruction" - all according to how it is shot.

 

[Wilbus]

Agree, time to update the dammage modell to keep up with the rest sims IMO, maybe some more visual aswell, such as bullet holes, Etc?

The 1 ping engine kill is not a "myth", same thing happens in 190A's and F's, even more often I belive, think it happens in the B26 aswell.
It is a bug wich has been varified and it will be fixed for .08.

[AcId]

Actaully, while I'm constantly being shot down I don't recall any instance of a 1-ping then explode. I do thing that there is some "in-between" in the model, on many occasions I've been shot up and not died, but rather tried to nurse a crippled plane back home only to be shot in the back on final approach by Fariz   . Thats another topic all together though. Seriously though....I find it very rare to not take some amount of damage but still be flyable.

[Qnm]

Actually, 1-2 days ago, in a 30mm+gondolas -G10, Mathman droning off ground exploded on first ping of cannon. Don't remember the plane though, was allied, maybe navy.

[Rocket]

1 ping deaths are out there.. they are the elusive pilot kill.  1 bullet to the head and pow, bang, boom dead.
I remember way back when alot of complaints about hits were around and HT added the bullet sounds after you got back to the tower.  Before that the sound stopped when you died.  A ton of 1 ping deaths it seemed like, but after that most agreed that they were few and far between.
Gimmie the full planeset before I see little holes in my wings  

S!
Rocket

[LUPO]

The 1 ping engine kill is not a "myth", same thing happens in 190A's and F's, even more often I belive, think it happens in the B26 aswell.
 

I confirm: 21 ping kill is NOT a myth. 205 is affected too. Yesterday it happned twice to me. 1 ping no smoke engine out. First time was against a fiter, second was ack.
I stopped use 205.  
At least yesterday...    
--------------------
LUPO
1° Gruppo Caccia
"Asso di Bastoni"
 
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*Bring the Reggiane Re2005 to Aces High!*
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[LUPO]

ooooooops...
 

21 ping kill  

Would be REALLY nice!!!  

[Vermillion]

One reason that people have the impression that the damage model is "all or nothing" is because the pilot population of AH leans heavily towards "cannon birds".

If we saw more of the MG planes (which were the most common in real life)  I think we would see more situations of coming home with alot of damage.

[Blue Mako]

Originally posted by Vermillion:
One reason that people have the impression that the damage model is "all or nothing" is because the pilot population of AH leans heavily towards "cannon birds".

If we saw more of the MG planes (which were the most common in real life)  I think we would see more situations of coming home with alot of damage.

Yup.  I fly the d pony with my 412th squaddies and many times the cons have limped home after I have riddled them with bullets.  I have been amazed sometimes by the amount of damage that AH will let you fly with...

-------------------------------------------
BLUEmako
   

"Live with it.  Enjoy the game.  Quit whining."

Isurus oxyrinchus
Qualities: Fast shark capable of spectacular aerobatics...
Hints: Very dangerous to man. Related to the White Pointer Shark. Well known for its unprovoked attacks...

[ 09-26-2001: Message edited by: Blue Mako ]

[Karnak]

Vermillion,

Which machine gun birds were more common in real life?  Back that statement up.

The fact of the matter is, most fighters in WWII were armed with cannon.

30,000 Bf109s, all with 1 or more cannon.
30,000 Yaks, nearly all with cannon.
20,000 Spitfires, the vast majority with cannon.
20,000 Fw190s, all with cannon.
15,000? Hurricanes, most with cannon.
12,000 A6Ms, all with cannon.
3,500 Ki84s, all with cannon.
3,000 Typhoons, all but a few donzen armed with cannon.

How many I-16s had cannon?  How many La-5s and La-7s were built? All had cannon. P-38s?

It is a myth that most WWII fighters were armed only with machine guns.  That is true of US aircraft, but not true of any other nation's fighters.

[highflyer]

Perhaps,.... (HOPEFULLY) Hitech could implement damage modeling comparible to the likes of IL2.

IL2's Damage modeling is just astounding.

for those who havent seen it/tried it, its highly recommended.

[Tac]

Yep. Lodge a few .50's or even .303's into a flap and it completely flies away. Hit a wing with 3 .50's and it comes off completely.

Maybe AH has modern tech damage modeling..ya know, just like cars are designed to crumple to save you? A few pings, game notices you screwed and loses the part just to let you know its time to bail out    

[highflyer]

Tac have you tried IL2?

[iculus]

For internet flight sims, you'll never see a a "perfect" damage model.  You just need something that works.  If you want, you can spend tons of time making the highest resolution damage model possible.  Each new variable is something new that can go wrong.  There suddenly becomes much more room for error.  Remember when WB tried to do this?  They modelled everything that the bullet would pass through.  The result was awful.  The MG151 became useless, and there were many odd things that would happen.  

Can the AH damage model be improved?  Sure!  Just don't go overboard.

Salute,
IC

[Wilbus]

1 ping deaths happen evemn without PK I belive, a 30mm in the fuel tank should do the job pretty good too  

What I was talking about was the 1 ping engine kill, as we all know, an engine, is NOT as vulnerable as a pilot.