Bomb dynamics...or lack there of..

[Citabria]

you would have to be on crack to not want eagls idea implemented.

the only question is how slight should the effect be?


the buff driver would have somthing new to decide on those long buff trips...

do I go stratospheric and use extra bombs per target to get hits or do I take my chances at a lower altitude to maintain accuracy?  

its an additional decision to add to the buff pilots flight planning.

if the goal is a more interesting and realistic simulation, anything that increases the variables of the outcome of the mission is highly desirable.

[TheWobble]

Cit,
You would be amazed at how many people who just dont care about the bombs and squeak and whine because they are afraid that if HTC fixes that they will somehow overlook fixing something for fighters.  I think It should be implemented aswell but if you read this thread you will notice many people wanting it to stay the same for some reason... als check out the thread  "lets make bombing a skill again"  there too i introduced the idea of having the bombs fall accuratly and alot of people jumped up my bellybutton about it "leave buffs alone" and what not.  I wrote HTC an E-mail about it but they havent responded.  I would love nothing more than to see this fixed..


As far as how much wobble...hmmmm

well at 9k you should be able to hit aa and such with 2 bombs or so.. at 15k it gets hard to even pinpoint hangars. bombs spread even more..at 20k you could dump your whole load ant it would land all over the field and kill random stuff, that way the stratobuffers (25k+) would have to stick to city killing if they want to fly that high.

[LJK Raubvogel]

It's a good idea, but you would see even fewer buffs.

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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps

[SKurj]

Dispersion = fine fer scenarios

Lazer dweeb bombs = perfect for MA where dispersion would make buffs extinct with the exception of TheWobble i guess.... ooops no he's in H2H...


AKSKurj

[TheWobble]

SKURJ,
thats what im saying its good for h2h and for anyone else who gives a crap if it looks and responds like its supposed to, but in the MA some people might not like it,

Thats why it should be an option, player can turn it on or off.  Or host can force one or the other.  I know not everyone wants them realistic, some people like them totally unrealistic, I just want to have the option to have bombs that are at least somewhat realistic in their behavior.

I mean lets face it, the only way they could be less realistic than they are now is if the fell UP.  

In other words, If you want realistic bomb dispersal you can have it, if you want lazer bombs, thats fine too..  there everybody happy. Thats the bottom line isnt it, make the masses happy?  Im not proposing anything that would detract from ANYTHING in ANY WAY!
There is much to gain and NOTHING to lose from just fixing this.  those who dont want bomb dispersal wont even know it exists, thos who want it have it.. there ya go.

[SKurj]

 

Originally posted by TheWobble:
Cit,
You would be amazed at how many people who just dont care about the bombs and squeak and whine because they are afraid that if HTC fixes that they will somehow overlook fixing something for fighters.  I think It should be implemented aswell but if you read this thread you will notice many people wanting it to stay the same for some reason... als check out the thread  "lets make bombing a skill again"  there too i introduced the idea of having the bombs fall accuratly and alot of people jumped up my bellybutton about it "leave buffs alone" and what not.  I wrote HTC an E-mail about it but they havent responded.  I would love nothing more than to see this fixed..
.

Sorry Wobbly but the post above dragged my bellybutton back into this discussion.
I have nooo idea where you get the idea that some of us are afraid attention spent on buffs would mean the fighters might suffer.  I don't want to see an arena where the buff doesn't exist.  Dispersion is the end of buffs.  Host selectable, fine (outside of the MA), user selectable, fine!! (tho we know how many will actually use this in the MA).
Adding selectable dispersion I am all for, so long as it stays out of the MA where it would be a GROSS mistake.
I've been around arena sims for a few years now and I've yet to fly in a scenario that required pinpoint bombing.  Dispersion works with formations of buffs which would be an excellent addition for scenarios.

You talk of realism for your bomb drop, how real is it to be a lone b17, or ju88 for that matter, bombing anything?  In RL it was a waste of resources, a waste of lives, and a waste of time.
Oops ok well the Japanese did send a lone bomber over the western US lol, he firebombed a forest... and failed..

AKSKurj

[TheWobble]

LOL, Skurg  
leave tha japs alone..LLOL

I want it as an option because believe it or not it can be alot more effective than ya might think,  flying over a base at 15k and dumping 12 500 pounder can be a very devistationg hit, although i must admit that the pinpoint aim every bomb way it is now will USUALLY do more damage.  What im getting at is  dont think that making the bombs disperse would be a purly asthetic fix.. it can be very useful when attacking vehicles.
 try hitting a moving osti or m-3 or even a panzer with a b-26,  if they are rolling so you have to lead them and the way the bombs fall if you drop more that 1 they just land in a row which doesent add any hit probablilty.  With some bomb drift you could take off in a 26 will 20 100 pounders and if there is a rolling vehicle you can drop a fast salvo of 5 bombs and aimed where you would have to aim 1 before and they would have a MUCH larger footprint.  I know 100's are small bombs but having 5 land all around ya will usually either kill yer gun or your treads, then you are an easy target and mission accoplished,  ALSO dropping many small bombs (250/100 pounds) over an air base might not kill much but it will pepper the runway pretty bad and that can play hell with planes taking off, especally bombers.
My main reason for wanting it is because even though i do more damage the way it is now its just too far from realism to really be fun.  I think it should be a player option since it doesent give any unfair advantage why shouldent anyone who wants it b able to use it use it? I really doubt this being an option will effect how many folks fly bombers, if anything it will add players since it looks so cool.  

And as far as the comment about some folks not wanting it fixed because they think it will take away from fixing something else, i have never seen it posted but several times while flying id mention it and someone says something like "dont waste time on buffs, fix something important"
Im no programmer, but i doubt it would take much work to fix the bombs.

[CavemanJ]

I'm no bomb ballistics expect, and dinnae make any claims to be, so I'll not delve too deeply into this discussion.

However, I do love to watch the history channel, especially when they're running WWII stuff.

Now maybe it's just these aging eyes, or maybe it's the lack of sleep newborn twins cause, but in the shows on the history channel every time I see a stick of eggs explode after being dropped they're in a pretty straight line.  None of this 300ft left-200ft back, next 500ft forward-150ft right mess.

I also seem to recall another discussion on this topic where some of the more educated in this realm checked in and said that the windlayers actually wouldna affect the bombs path that much, though I guess I could be remembering wrong.

Now, as to the dispertion affects....
You give me 300 more B17s flying on my wing in a nice formation, all dropping on the same target I drop on, and dropping on the leader, I'm all for it.  What you're overlooking is that this is playability issue.

And while the front end option for disperstion sounds attractive, is there enough interest in it to make it worthwhile.  The short and simple answer is no.  That means the dev time it would take to create that option for the few dedicated buff drivers would take away from the dev time for something else that would garner the interest to make it worthwhile, like new kites and the navy.

And I can speak as a dedicated buff driver when I say leave the buffs alone.  While I dinnae have much time in then in the later tours, check my buff stats in the first tours, including the beta tours (214CaveJ in beta).

[qts]

A lot actually depends upon how the bombs are actually dropped - the design of the carriage is rather important. Not only is the aim to get the maximum amount of ordnance on target but also to safeguard the plane - bombs are aerodynamic, and you definitely don't want them hitting each other shortly after being dropped (oops!) or flying back up into the plane (mega-oops!!). Anyway, being dropped properly makes all the difference between the bombs going all over the place and the bombs hitting the target in the optimal pattern.

So we can just assume that our bombadier is dropping them properly.

[TheWobble]

Caveman,
Gee sorry to think that anyone would waste their time to fix something SO OBVIOUS as bombs that fall completely without the slightest bit of realism, it must be more important to cater to the squeakes and whines about a certin fighter climbing 2 feet per min slower that it is supposed to or some toejam like that.  I still cant believe how everybody will nitpick this piddley little crap that you have to be some kind of aeronautics engineer to even notice.  Yet completely ignore something so obvious as a falling object. i mean christ they land the EXACT, EXACT DAMMIT same way from 40000 feet as they do from 200 that is total horse toejam.
there could be no bigger of a "playability issue" as you call it than that!  I just want this whoopee option to make the game better, noone who would suffer from it and many would benifit, I know nobody else argues the bomb issue, you know why? because all the fighter pukes toejam on them because they think that if HTC takes the time to fix something that doesent directly benifit them then that is just time wasted that should be spent fixing all this stupid little crap that people whine about on fighters, i mean JESUS CHRIST LOOK AT THE BOARD! people post all these whoopee charts ans toejam about climb and turn rates and how they arent EXACTLY right and how they need to fix it and every body agrees yea fix it, even me and i dont even fly a fighter i want people to be happy as much as anyone.  but sure mention the grossly undermodeled bombs and waht do ya get? a big collective diddly YOU!
No wonder there are so few people who will argue for the bombers THEY ARE TIRED OF GETTING PISSED ON!

[TheWobble]

QTS,
I dont care how  "properly" you drop them there is no way the 12 bombs dropped from 40000 would land in a perfectly straight line, I mean fly a bomber and see for  yourself.

Get 20 100 pounders in a b-26 and fly to 30k  and drop them all in salvo of say .07
then do the same from 200 feet.  They will land EXACTLY the same, now to me thats just kinda retarded, especally in a game that prided it self of accuratly modeled aircraft and such.

BTW, all the info i post about bombers and falling bombs come straight from my grandfather, he was a ball turret gunner.  I dont think there is a better source as to how bombs in ww2 fell than that.  

here are the conditions you would need to make real bombs fall the way the one's in AH do.
1. no wind whatsoever,
2. no air resistance whatsoever.
3. no type of any kind of friction.
4.bombs that are identicle down to the molecular level.

The thing thats funny is that given only 1 of those conditions planes wouldent even be able to fly, nothing would.  Oh and ya couldent walk either cause there is no friction.

WOW what a realistic combat sim.

[Toad]

Wobble, just a few observations.

If one has to resort to profanity to "win" and argument....one loses.

Sometimes it pays to step back and re-evaluate, particularly if it sometimes seems a one-man crusade. It doesn't necessarily mean the point is not valid. It may indeed mean that the vast majority of the group does not share the same urgency or concern about the subject.

Also, please take a moment and consider "bomb drop" as a small part of a large game. Given the nature of a multi-player Main Arena and the struggle to implement any strategic bombing activities in such an environment, is bomb modeling a MAJOR problem in game play? (Not realism please...game play),

Lastly, I'm sure HTC has noted your argument and I'm willing to bet it's on the list of things to look into. However, please be a little considerate when demanding immediate changes. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of players and many of them have suggested improvements to HTC. HTC themselves have ideas on where the game needs to go and what needs doing next.

I am sympathetic to your arguments although I feel no special urgency in the matter. The present system works in the present game environment. As the game environment and strategy become more complex, I'm sure bomb models will become more complex as well. I support that.

However, when you unleash a tirade like the one just above....you pretty much lose my support entirely. Four letter flourishes do not make an argument more effective.

Thanks for your consideration!

[CavemanJ]

Tell ya what wobble...
You take your B-17G
clean it up and shine it up real nice
and I mean really shine all the brightwork til it gleams
then you turn that sucker sideways and...

well.. I'm sure you know the rest.

Before you get all high and mighty with  me you need to go back read what I wrote.  You have given me the impression that you took my post to be a personal attack on you.  I hate to rupture that infantile ego of yours, but I was merely speaking in generalization of what one should realistically expect from a BUSINESS.  That's right, HiTech Creations, Inc is a business.  And businesses are in business to make money.  And when decision time rolls around they have to at least glace at the bottom line.  This where the adage "The needs of the many out-weigh the needs of the few (or the one)" applies.  Sorry  mate, but this particular item falls into the catagory of the few or the one.

How many of the casual buff drivers are going to take the time to climb to altitude if they can't hit what they're aiming at?  Remember, while we're simulating WWII aerial combat, it's still just a game, something to have fun with while passing the time.

Like I said, I'm all for realism.  Give me 300 more B17s flying good formations off my wing and then this dispertion you keep clamoring about might gain more support.

BTW, My granddad was a B24 pilot, left seat, and 2nd in command of his squadron.  I'm sure half the folks here have relatives or have friends who had relatives flying/on buffs in the war.  Dinnae make any of experts on how bombs drop mate.

And I see you chose to not comment on the films they run on the History channel.  Where's your vaunted dispersion in those lines of bombs exploding?  Maybe a little variation left and right of the path, but they're dropped from the left and ride side of the bombbays.  ::shrug::

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CavemanJ
CO, The Wrecking Crew

"Airpower is a thunderbolt launched from an egg shell invisibly tethered to a base."
               --Hoffman Nickerson

To close with and destroy the enemy by use of fire, manuever, and shock effect

Know Fear - Have Twins

[pokie]

 

Originally posted by TheWobble:
Dang Nexx, I never thought about that..

I guess Your right about that one.  It just bothers me to have them fall so straight and perfect from whatever alt, I know it makes for easier gameplay and such but it sure looks ugly, and I hate having to aim every bomb.  I dont really care how accurate the sight is as long as the bombs will spread out a bit when ya drop them.  I guess I have to admit it would make killing an entire field with 1 plane alot harder, but it is SO unrealistic the way it is now i could stand to make that sacrifice.  
HOW ABOUT THIS.

make bomb dispersion a HOST option.
kinda like wind and manueverkill range.

.drift 0  = no drift (the way it is now)
.drift 1  = a drift of 1 foot per every 100 feet of fall... and so on.

That away the MA would remain the same unless enough people asked HT to change it and then on the H2H where lots of times there are say 1 bomber for every 3 fighters as opposed to 1 bomber for every 30 fighters.

I guess what I am saying is ok lets leave the MA alone but at least make it an option for H2H where bombers are WAY to powerful because their ratio to fighters is higher.
any thoughts?

Hey wobble, like your idea of
".drift 0  = no drift (the way it is now)
.drift 1  = a drift of 1 foot per every 100 feet of fall... and so on."

Just a side note: There where 2 types of bombings Carpet and Inline.

Inline: bombs dropped in a straight line and hitt the target in a straight line.

Carpet: bombs dropped scattered in a straight line (flight of the bomber).

With using wobbles idea you could fly (let's say) 2 bombers.  The 1st one inline bombing and if the target was missed to the right he could radio the 2nd bomber and tell him "aim XX amount to the left of the target.

Anyway I'm on your side wobble!

Pokie

P.S Good island map. Just been keeping an eye on you in the terrain form.  Getting and info possible.  Trying to learn to built maps myself.  Haven't took the time to study the terrain editor enough.  They should have had a section for me in it.  
Building Terrains for Dummies!

[Ripsnort]

WTF are you guys complaining about???
Here's proof that there is nothing wrong with the bombs I'm carrying, accuracy?  Who cares!?!