Author Topic: Suicide JABOS and CV's  (Read 912 times)

Offline Buzzbait

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Suicide JABOS and CV's
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2001, 10:20:00 PM »
S!

And as for the one instance where a CV died to a single fighter:

The USS Franklin, a brand new CV with lotsa AA and surrounded by a ton of flak ships got nailed by a kamikaze Zeke with a bomb.

She caught fire, was wracked with explosions, and although she didn`t sink, to all intents and purposes, she was junk.

Offline Voss

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Suicide JABOS and CV's
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2001, 10:32:00 PM »
You said it, Buzz. She didn't sink.

Offline Seeker

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« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2001, 10:48:00 PM »
Can someone describe skip bombing? I've heard the term many times but don't really understand the intricacies?

Offline Buzzbait

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« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2001, 11:09:00 PM »
S! Voss

Maybe you better read an account of the action.  Then tell me it was important that she didn't sink.

Like I said, she was junk.  Scrapyard metal.

Offline Buzzbait

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« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2001, 11:31:00 PM »
S!

I don't bomb a CV with the intention of dying.  I bomb it with the intention of killing the CV and living.

I don't have many points for killing CV's since most of my kills happened last frame and I hadn't listed the Typhoon or Hellcat as ATTACK.

Last frame I sank 3 CV's or Cruisers for every time I died.  And very often I had to make two runs on a CV to send it to the bottom.  A lot of time you get one hit and one near miss and a second trip is nessesary.

Almost every trip I made, I took damage from near misses by heavy flak.  Most often I'd lose an aileron, a rudder, get a Rad punctured or oil leak.  The Rad puncture is the worst for the Tiffie, it doesn't usually last more than a couple minutes after that.  The Corsair and Hellcat take engine damage better, but they don't have the speed and I find I survive better in the Tiffie.

I would die on every mission, except that on the way down, I constantly roll, use my rudder to skid and only hold steady for the instant that I need to release the bombs.

I start at 10,000 feet, directly over the CV, usually release the bombs at around 4,000 ft.  Starting directly over the CV isn't gonna help as far as the flak is concerned, that will get you whatever way you approach if you don't fly evasively.  Being directly overhead is the best way to be sure you'll be able to hit the CV or Cruiser square with both 1K's.  If you release lower than 4,000 ft, you are gonna likely die, since it takes at least 2,000 ft to pullout.  At less than 2,000 ft range, you are gonna get creamed by the light flak.

As soon as I drop, I'm back to rolling like a madman, while I pull out in as diagonal a path as I can make.   That is, across the aiming path of the guns and at the same time diagonally down.

I try to get down to the deck at about 1.5 distance from the TG.  At that distance you are pretty safe from the light flak and the heavy flak doesn't usually shoot that low.  Still you have to continue to roll and evade till you are at least 5.0 distance away.

All those of you who claim the kamikaze method is the only way of killing the big ships...  you're wrong.

If you get hit by flak, and your bombs are not gone, then they explode with you.  They don't continue down to hit the target.

And if you've held your dive to the point you aren't gonna be able to pull out, thinking you are guaranteed of a hit, then likely you will be hit by flak.  That will throw you off course and you will again miss your target, even if you are still alive and able to hit the bomb release.

Hitting a CV and surviving takes planning and skill, and a certain amount of luck.  If there is a CAP over the fleet, or someone manning the guns, then your chances of success are a LOT less.

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #20 on: November 21, 2001, 11:37:00 PM »
By golly, then the problem is solved(if you think the single dive-bomber threat is 'tick-off' material, wait 'til this happens).

 Make CV tougher, but make it damageable. If rockets, or well placed cannon rounds hit, let it knock out some of those flaks and acks.

 I think we'll get to see a LOT more suicidal 'dweebs' if we do this. Fighters furballing around CV, diving into ack fire wave after wave strafing and rocketing.. until eventually the CVs and ships nearby loses all anti-aircraft functions, badly damaged.. then a 'counter vulch' right on top of the CV will commence.

 ...

 or.. we can stick to what we have

 CAP the CV. Protect it if it is so important.

Offline Buzzbait

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« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2001, 11:52:00 PM »
S!

Don't know if Skip bombing can be done in AH, since the bombs would probably explode when they hit the water.  The way it was done was like this as far as I know:

The bomber got down to around 500 ft off the surface of the water, in level flight, headed for the target.  At about 1000 ft from the target, the bombs were released.  They had a delay on the explosion of a few seconds.  The bombs hit the water, and then skipped, just like a pebble you skip on a pond, right into the side of the ship.

Meanwhile the Bomber pulled up.

The Allies used this mostly against merchant ships and destroyers or destroyer escorts, and mostly in the Pacific.  Lots of ships were destroyed trying to resupply Japanese bases cut off by Allied sea and airpower.  

You couldn't practice skip bombing against heavily armed ships since the bomber had to pull up over the target after release, and would be really vulnerable to flak.

Offline eskimo2

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« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2001, 12:30:00 AM »
Most folks, myself included, fly many, most, or even all of their missions with little regard for survival.
Why should we all of a sudden care if we live just because big nasty boats are involved?

It's a game.
We all get to die over and over every night.
Not realistic, but that's what makes it a GAME!

eskimo

Offline Wotan

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« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2001, 01:29:00 AM »
no toejame eskimo   :rolleyes:

that same type complains that perk planes cost too much and that 3k buff runs are needed and that ack starrin aint dweeby

why should we expect anything else

Offline Voss

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« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2001, 02:29:00 AM »
Hmm, I think the Franklin was also a smaller carrier than the one depicted in AH. I'm not a CV expert, of course, but I would think no matter what style you prefer in game play that you would want the CV to take more abuse. The fact is, most of us live for the furball. Maybe we don't all furball, but the furball is where the kills are. Whether you turn-n-burn or boom-n-zoom, you hunt for the furball to get your kills.

The CV allows us to move in close to a field, and start an immediate action scenario. Whether you like to buff, furball, b-n-z, or man the guns of a PT Boat, this is the closest thing to rock-n-roll action there is. Otherwise, the fight is higher, further away, and often times hidden from view (to one side or the other).

With the CV you get a fight where both sides have the ability to view the fight from the tower, decide for immediate action or a remote entry, and they both know precisely where the furball is. It is very seldom that the field is capped immediately, so there isn't really a risk of vultching from the start.

The fight is, often, out over water, and restrained in elevation by flak. The most difficult aspect of this, that I have noticed, is getting your countrymen to restrain themselves from taking the fight right up to the CV. From the CV's standpoint that;s what they want. I have no problem with low furballs. The closer the fight the better we all look, whether you're into score, or not. Close fights with fast action kills rock, and they give good results in the standings.

Taking the CV out quick just ends the party.

Offline J_A_B

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« Reply #25 on: November 22, 2001, 03:12:00 AM »
Franklin was the exact same kind of carrier as depticted in AH--USN Essex-class.  And Franklin wasn't the only US carrier to be mauled by a single plane.

What does it matter if the CV in AH sinks or not?   Would it really make a difference if, instead of sinking, the CV slowly limped back to its home port incapable of flight ops?  Either way, the CV is no longer usable as a base.

Carriers were shockingly vulnerable.  Right under the WOOD flightdeck was a hangar filled to the brim with airplanes, guns, bombs, fuel, rockets, ammo, pressurized gas lines, and so forth.  The british were smart (sort of--see below) and armored their flight decks.  Nobody else did until the US MIDWAY-class was built (too late for the war)

That said, I see nothing wrong with increasing CV toughness for gameplay.  I feel there is such a thing as "too much" realism, and this is a good case of it.  I think AirWarrior had CV toughness about right--it took the AH equivalent of about 8,000 lbs of bombs to sink one.  In other words a dedicated bomber raid, though with the LANC in AH 20,000 lbs might be more reasonable.  Also, in AW torpedos had a bonus versus bombs, perhaps AH might want something similar to encourage torp raids.

(The armored flightdeck on the british ships had a by-product of reducing airplane capacity to about 2/3 of what a non-armored ship would carry for its tonnage.)

J_A_B

Offline Voss

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« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2001, 03:00:00 AM »
8K is precisely what it takes in the NDIsles map, but I think every other map is 2.5k. In the Isles the sea battles last much longer and are much more fun!  :)

Offline J_A_B

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« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2001, 04:12:00 AM »
How odd that they aren't equally tough on all maps.

Must be the use of poor-grade steel in their construction in the other maps   :)  


J_A_B

Offline Don

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« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2001, 10:09:00 AM »
I agree with comments made about capping the CV. To use and overused phrase (ahem) "Historically" shipping, especially attack ships had to be capped to avoid nme a/c coming in and dive bombing the ships. The Japanese took to suicide bombing as a last desperate effort to stem the allied tide of destruction of their bases and homeland. A shot up pilit with no chance of survival would dive his plane into a structure or ship to achieve some damage to an nme.
The cap is key, and many won't do it cuz the action is elsewhere. Like most things in the MA teamwork and organization is lacking.

Offline Montezuma

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« Reply #29 on: November 23, 2001, 01:16:00 PM »
I vote to make the CV tougher.  It is just a gameplay issue, team work should be required to sink it.

Maybe when the navy aspect is more developed in the game HTC will look into a realistic ship damage model.