minimum manouvering speed

[df54]

   
  does someone know a reliable method for determining the minimum
  manouvering speed for ah aircraft.

[splitatom]

um 150 and above for american airplanes exept fm2 without flaps
spits i would say 120
germans same as american planes exept for the f and e of the 109
japs 100 for zeros there others i would say 140
me262 safety stay about 400
me 163 150

[TequilaChaser]

does someone know a reliable method for determining the minimum
  manouvering speed for ah aircraft.

your question is kind of open ended and left for interpetation........

I would say to find out the extreme limit of flying your plane type to the extreme minimal maneuvering speed you would have to find out the stalling speed..ie.meaning to where you can not maintain an atitude of pointing the nose above the horizon.....

many of us here fly these cartoon planes to the EXTREME EDGE...especially when in a Knife fight. It is left up to each individual person to find out exactly how far they are capable of PUSHING a particular plane type and still maintain controlled flight.......or step across that edge of the flight envelope and ride the wave and gain control before you lose it all..control that is....

I am BRAIN FRIED FROM TOO MUCK WORK..I am sure one of the engineers will soon post here to give a more academic answer...

[TequilaChaser]

um 150 and above for american airplanes exept fm2 without flaps

I disagree, I can push a Hog around at speeds well under 80 IAS......... and for 10 minutes or longer.......( waiting patiently for the "Wonder Flaps" lobbier's ROFL )

let me add to my list,
: A C202, a F6f5, a P51B, a SBD, D3A, and quiet a few others....all not at or near 80 ias.but some a little higher 90/100 ias , and some lower......

as for flying a F4U-1.there is film footage of it manuevering well under 45 IAS and not augering...... ( 3rd edit: I am going to backpedal a lil bit here. Although the plane in the film mentioned is well below its absolute minimum level flight speed, the theory of momentum and inertia is what the plie-it & plane is using since it's speed has already dropped well below the minimal limit...it still has momentum and the laws of inertia so that the air moving across the controls allows one to still get effective use at of the Rudder, Ailerons, elevator to make it perform when one thinks it would be impossible......)


2nd edit:  also, I am not campaigning or say this is how one should fly. I am under the thought of , a person should use their plane type in the limits of the planes best Flight envelope, ie.being Instantaneous turn speed/rate to sustained turn speed/rate....and at the same time I encourage everyone to find the extreme limits on each end of the flight envelope........you will not know what you are capable of unless you push it just as far as you can......

[BnZs]

accelerated stall speed for a given configuration=square root of Gs X 1 G stall speed for that configuration.

So, if an airplane stalls at 100mph at 1 G in a given configuration, then at 4 Gs it would stall at 200mph.

However, keep in mind that the square root of zero is zero and that zero times a number is zero....

[splitatom]

I disagree, I can push a Hog around at speeds well under 80 IAS......... and for 10 minutes or longer.......( waiting patiently for the "Wonder Flaps" lobbier's ROFL )

let me add to my list,
: A C202, a F6f5, a P51B, a SBD, D3A, and quiet a few others....all not at or near 80 ias.but some a little higher 90/100 ias , and some lower......

as for flying a F4U-1.there is film footage of it manuevering well under 45 IAS and not augering...... ( 3rd edit: I am going to backpedal a lil bit here. Although the plane in the film mentioned is well below its absolute minimum level flight speed, the theory of momentum and inertia is what the plie-it & plane is using since it's speed has already dropped well below the minimal limit...it still has momentum and the laws of inertia so that the air moving across the controls allows one to still get effective use at of the Rudder, Ailerons, elevator to make it perform when one thinks it would be impossible......)


2nd edit:  also, I am not campaigning or say this is how one should fly. I am under the thought of , a person should use their plane type in the limits of the planes best Flight envelope, ie.being Instantaneous turn speed/rate to sustained turn speed/rate....and at the same time I encourage everyone to find the extreme limits on each end of the flight envelope........you will not know what you are capable of unless you push it just as far as you can......

did you read without flaps

[TequilaChaser]

did you read without flaps

did you read where I said

your question is kind of open ended and left for interpetation........

he said nothing regarding with or without flap usage.......
oh , yes I see you are refering to where I quoted you, yes I read that ....it just didn't register at the time....pardon me

[Steel]

I have footage of a P-51B flying at 50 KIAS in controlled flight.

Minimum manuerving speed is also dependent on the gross takeoff weight.

[Traveler]

   
  does someone know a reliable method for determining the minimum
  manouvering speed for ah aircraft.

the key words in the question are " manouvering speed "

Maneuvering Speed or Va is the indicated airspeed at which an aircraft exceeds it's load limit acceleration.  The mass or weight and force or lift present on the aircraft the moment AOA is exceeded will result in one of two things, One), result in a stalled wing condition if the speed is blow Va,  or two), the wings may depart from the aircraft at airspeed above Va.

This is why your flight instructor has you slow to Va prior to entering an accelerated stall.


 

[TequilaChaser]

yes "Ground School - Theory of Flight", along with Wikpedia and Google search is very informative for most

if someone is going to post from a cut and paste, it is always helpful to show them where the post or quoted text came from

I have noticed a string of posted replys that have been "Cut/ Copy & Paste" without any credit of where the True TEXT came from

not refering to this Posted Topic alone, there have been quiet several different topics in the Help & Training forum lately where people are copying and pasting replys without showing the original credit or URL of where the info came from. I am simply asking that give credit to where it is due....it would be much appreciated from the whole community

[Dawger]

I would assume the OP wants to know what the minimum speed is for effective BFM (Basic Fighter Maneuvers).

For me (IIRC, I got this directly from Robert Shaw's classic Fighter Combat) the key speed to keep in mind is that which allows you to complete a pure vertical maneuver.

Ideally, you want to be able to pull the nose up all the way into a half loop and be able to finish off with a half roll at the top (Modern Immelmann maneuver).

This speed will allow you to do any of the Basic Fighter Maneuvers and ,thus, puts you in a good position for defense.

Now, what speed is that exactly? It gets a little tricky at this point because the speed required to do a vertical maneuver can be dependent on the technique used to accomplish it.

A maximum G Immelmann requires more speed at entry than an airshow quality Immelman.

Another variable in the equation is altitude. With 15,000 feet below you, its easy to convert altitude for speed. I'll get slower than my minimum vertical maneuver speed up high because I know I can always use nose low maneuvering to build speed. On the deck every knot below maximum G maneuvering speed is a nail in the coffin.

How do I track this speed? For starters I fly only one airplane type, the P38. I don't ever look at the instrument panel much less the airspeed indicator. It has to become a matter of judging the wind noise, an instinctive "feel". In a real airplane it is easy to tell how fast you are going, especially in a WWII era airplane. On a computer its a bit harder. Thats why I recommend using a headset to fly and adjusting the engine sounds down to a low level and using wind noise as your primary speed indication.

Learning one plane type really well before swapping to another is always a good idea as well.

[uptown]

I don't really know if I'm answering this right, but I go into a controlled maneuver all the time at close to 25 IAS or so, all the time. Considering a contolled stall in a maneuver.

But, most of the time the minumum maneuver speed is usually dictated by what and how I am fighting.

[Traveler]

yes "Ground School - Theory of Flight", along with Wikpedia and Google search is very informative for most

if someone is going to post from a cut and paste, it is always helpful to show them where the post or quoted text came from

I have noticed a string of posted replys that have been "Cut/ Copy & Paste" without any credit of where the True TEXT came from

not refering to this Posted Topic alone, there have been quiet several different topics in the Help & Training forum lately where people are copying and pasting replys without showing the original credit or URL of where the info came from. I am simply asking that give credit to where it is due....it would be much appreciated from the whole community

Not sure if this was directed to me, however, It's a cut and past form my training material hand outs to my  students.  I've been a CFII for the last 30 years. 

[Dawger]

I rather doubt the OP is interested in structural maneuvering speed (Va).

In his original post he uses the word minimum which precludes Va (as it is a maximum speed)

In addition, I doubt he is much worried about breaking parts off his AH airplane.

[Murdr]

I had the same take Dawger.  I'm not seeing how knowing Va would be useful as it applies to AH.

When df54 posts a question it usually reminds me of an exam where and essay is required for the answer.  I agree with TC, this one is a bit open ended.


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