Why are they leaving?

[BaldEagl]

I didn't read everyone's replys but thought I'd interject.

I've started playing AW in June of '96, moved on to AWII then AWIII then AHI then AHII so I've been playing with an active account for 12 1/2 years now.

Cherry picking, hoarding, vulching, griefing, shade vulching, spying and everything else that happens today have been happening from the beginning although I think the pace of each of these has picked up a bit.  What's different today is that the community is much larger.  In the old days we all pretty much knew one another.  Now I rarely know who it is I killed or got killed by.  That anonimity in and of itself allows people the freedom to act as they wish which may be quite dweebish because they really have no reputation at stake.  Being one dweeb in a community of thousands is a lot different than being a dweeb in a community of hundreds.

In the old days, in a smaller game with fewer people, I'd get into at least a few heart pounding fights every day.  Unless you were at the furball they were mostly one on one, one on two or one on three max.  Now I'm lucky to find this once a week.  Getting constantly ganged by the new era players or flying in the hoard don't fit my tastes or desires.  Over the past year or so I started playing for score just to find a new challenge because finding a fair fight against a decent opponent is a lot more difficult than it used to be.

When I first started I played every minute that I could.  I couldn't wait to get my next chance to log on and play.  Lately I log on and look at the map and sit in the tower, fly one sortie and log off.  Sometimes when I have a day off and I know it's going to be a free day I look forward to spending the whole day playing only to log on, fly a few sorties and log back off.  I recently took a full week off while I was at home every night... something I couldn't have imagined in the past and the longer I stayed away the less I cared about logging back on.  Burn out, loss of interest, whatever it is it causes me to play less.

Back in the AW days you knew what you were going to get.  Two maps (Europe and Pacific) with reflective plane sets in relaxed realism and full realism plus WWI and Korea.  There was little development and virtually no changes in the game itself.  While HT has done a good job of development overall (far superior to AW) he has also made exceedingly bad decisions that have driven players away.  ENY, Splitting the LWMA, the "thin blue line" experiment (almost lost me for good on that one), arena caps and responding to BBs whines (star wars ack, getting rid of big maps, EZ mode bomb calibration, and the list goes on) among others.  Some of these are not insignificant changes and each one influences gameplay and not always for the better.  I guess each change improved HT's subscription numbers and I'm sure he doesn't care if the money comes from old timers or n00bs.

I really don't play any other computer games anymore (well, a few but not very often).  I've been getting closer and closer to calling it quits over the past year but I keep hanging on looking for that one good fight.  Really, there is nothing better than a heart pounding, sweaty handed "fair" fight.  You just don't find many of those anymore. I'm still here (although playing less).  We'll see how things go. 

[kj714]

Squeekers are a PITA but it's an online game, what do you expect?

I think a lot of old timers move on for the same reason a lot of not old timers move on, it no longer holds their interest. One day you wake up and say "Geez, I could be doing something a lot better with my life than this" and poof! gone. Happy trails to them.

Nothing wrong with the game, it's still worth $15.95 a month. Have a cookie and lighten up Francis.

[Urchin]

Murdr,

I have the utmost respect for Dale and company. No question I've changed in response to my environment, its inevitable. However I think the "unhappiness" here comes from an unwillingness to continue to adapt. The aspects of the game I love are being constantly eroded. So in the end it seems your left with a choice of extremes. Either join the herd and fly double superior planes vs over matched guys who you still respect for flying against the numbers, fly double superior planes against the numbers and use the green guys as bait and decoys or continue to fly "old school" against ever increasing odds and get your brains beat out. You can only get killed so many times by the "nth guy in" before it grates on you. I think thats where I finally went A-20/SBD. I guess in the end its a statement of some kind that tried to say "look at all your missing by not even trying to scratch the surface".

What I dont understand is why you cant have a "tactical arena" in addition to the current one. No formations, no 4 engine bombers, variable plane set by field, increasing toughness for capture as you move further to "the rear" etc.. I also suggested a historic (by country) revolving plane set (again tactical). My thought is that Japan, Russia, England would be a good match up to start.  

That's pretty much why I left.  And why each time I come back, I last exponentially shorter amounts of time. 

[pervert]

I guess each change improved HT's subscription numbers and I'm sure he doesn't care if the money comes from old timers or n00bs.

kinda looks that way doesn't it, CT being shelved was a huge kick in the balls too its development was clearly aimed at a different type of player and its being scrapped is an admission by HTC that the player type exists but isn't were the moneys at.

[thndregg]

I've only played since '04. Flayed1 got me hooked. We played a lot back in the day. Now, Flayed1 and I now typically play on weekends off and on, especially when we have a little booze. I do miss how proficient I was in my favorite fighters, the Yak9u & 9T. I used to run a lot of Jug and bomber missions. Not so much anymore unless I get asked.

My perception is most likely inaccurate, but nonetheless I see a lot of the new player base as less patient and less interested in tactics that work in the main arenas. Usually if I post a mission now, the vets that are on are the ones that know what's going on. They are becoming fewer. I get asked by more players these days "why are we upping from so-&-so base?", and get some complaints. I typically tell them "Because WE NEED ALT to make this happen. If you don't like it, don't join." It seems some have difficulty seeing the fun that would eventually happen even at high alt (the great fights that do occur even at 20K).

[Dawger]

After a few years a player stays for his friends.

All the silliness about codes and honor is a smokescreen.

It is very simple. Good squadrons keep players longer than an individual will stay on his own.

I've seen it firsthand.

I'm only here because of friends I've had for years. If my squadron didn't exist I would be gone.

Squadron membership (and player accounts) are directly proportional to the level of participation of the squadron if the members have been flying online for more than 5 years. My squadron suffered a major blow in active membership when we stopped participating in events (FSO). When we had an active effort to get guys out every week for an organized sortie participation was much higher than it is now.

Aces High suffers from a peculiar malady in that the community actively discourages squadron level operations.

There is a weird fascination with some mythical code of honor with regards to 1 v 1 fights in a MMOG.

Members of the Training Corps are in this thread specifically decrying the sound tactics taught to fighter pilots the world over.

1 v 1 is the basic level of aerial combat. It is not the highest level of skill. Competence in the 1 v 1 is only the starting point. The highest level of achievement in aerial combat is competence in the many versus many environment, especially when there is a mission goal to be performed.

Folks who never progress past the 1 v 1 stage quickly lose interest unless they become part of a team and progress past the myth of the 1 v 1.

There is no greater thrill for a neophyte than to fly a team work sortie against an enemy flying as a team and to survive. There is no greater thrill for someone with 30,000 online kills to lead a team work sortie and accomplish the mission and bring everyone home alive. I'm not talking about NOE sneaking around. I'm talking about large squadrons going against large squadrons in air to air engagements.

I've fought 20 versus 20 engagements above 25,000 feet with neither side gaining a kill in a 20 minute engagement in a Main Arena environment.

I've flown 3 hour bomber escort sorties and watched wave after wave of luftwaffe scream through the bomber box in events.

I've been in a 190 screaming through the box in formation guns blazing.

Thats the stuff that keeps people coming back for more.

The endless carping about "hording, cherry picking, ganging, alt monkey, codes of honor, respect my 1 v 1" is what drives people away.

People want to belong. They want to be a part of a team working together. When they can't find that they go away once the thrill of the kill wears off.

[The Fugitive]

I for one, am not "burnt out". I love this game. The challenge is still there. Even with all of the changes HTC has made over the years its still the best, bar none WWII flight sim around. The variety of things to do is pretty good. Fights can still be had. The day before the fight I posted about the bish, I ran into a group of 7-8 guys trying to take a base. We had 5-6 guys defending and the fun lasted almost an hour. They showed some honor, and played the game as well as the defenders did. So for me burn out isn't a problem.

For those who are posting and saying "it isn't that bad."" I've played a couple years and its about the same". If you could build a chart that showed how the "poor game play" has built over the years it would show a steady climb for years then level off at the top for the last couple of years. So those that have been here a few years only know this type of game play, it already was poor when they started. Your basing your opinion on the rubble that is left, where us oldtimers try to bring back the buildings the was what the rubble was made from.

Dawger, HTC doesn't try to stop squad and squad ops, nor do I think would the oldtimers. Todays squads are made up of score mongers, or skillless people who MUST fight in a horde because they couldn't get past the first merge in a fight by them selves. Todays squads are made up of people who want it now, who don't want to spend the time to learn how to fight at 20k, or how to organize a big mission with way points and rendezvous. You didn't see the days here that had high alt missions that took hours to run, the fights that were created to take just a single base.

There is nothing wrong with this game, but there is something wrong with a large portion of the population. Too many people come in looking for short cuts, and how to cut corners. The new guys come in and see this and figure that what I have to do to keep up, so they take the short cuts. All of this just brings on more and more poor play.

[Anaxogoras]

After a few years a player stays for his friends.

All the silliness about codes and honor is a smokescreen.

It is very simple. Good squadrons keep players longer than an individual will stay on his own.

I've seen it firsthand.

I'm only here because of friends I've had for years. If my squadron didn't exist I would be gone.

Squadron membership (and player accounts) are directly proportional to the level of participation of the squadron if the members have been flying online for more than 5 years. My squadron suffered a major blow in active membership when we stopped participating in events (FSO). When we had an active effort to get guys out every week for an organized sortie participation was much higher than it is now.

Aces High suffers from a peculiar malady in that the community actively discourages squadron level operations.

There is a weird fascination with some mythical code of honor with regards to 1 v 1 fights in a MMOG.

Members of the Training Corps are in this thread specifically decrying the sound tactics taught to fighter pilots the world over.

1 v 1 is the basic level of aerial combat. It is not the highest level of skill. Competence in the 1 v 1 is only the starting point. The highest level of achievement in aerial combat is competence in the many versus many environment, especially when there is a mission goal to be performed.

Folks who never progress past the 1 v 1 stage quickly lose interest unless they become part of a team and progress past the myth of the 1 v 1.

There is no greater thrill for a neophyte than to fly a team work sortie against an enemy flying as a team and to survive. There is no greater thrill for someone with 30,000 online kills to lead a team work sortie and accomplish the mission and bring everyone home alive. I'm not talking about NOE sneaking around. I'm talking about large squadrons going against large squadrons in air to air engagements.

I've fought 20 versus 20 engagements above 25,000 feet with neither side gaining a kill in a 20 minute engagement in a Main Arena environment.

I've flown 3 hour bomber escort sorties and watched wave after wave of luftwaffe scream through the bomber box in events.

I've been in a 190 screaming through the box in formation guns blazing.

Thats the stuff that keeps people coming back for more.

The endless carping about "hording, cherry picking, ganging, alt monkey, codes of honor, respect my 1 v 1" is what drives people away.

People want to belong. They want to be a part of a team working together. When they can't find that they go away once the thrill of the kill wears off.

Well said dwgr!

[Bruv119]

one of my MD's buzz words is "Churn"

Whilst beloved members of the  community quit or leave some old members return to play again.  The old flame never truly goes out unless they do actually pass away.   

[sax]

I just came back from a 6 month break from AH. I never cancelled my account as I don't see 15 bucks a month and diminishing interest in this game
any different than any other hobby I have. I knew when I took the break that I would be back because at the end of the day AH is still the best at what it does.

Most of the guys leaving will be back. Maybe some never left just did a name change and are enjoying a little quiet time on-line.

If I could change anything it would be to have two of the arena's have smaller maps so it didn't take 10 minutes to fly to the fight.

[gatt]

For those who are posting and saying "it isn't that bad."" I've played a couple years and its about the same". If you could build a chart that showed how the "poor game play" has built over the years it would show a steady climb for years then level off at the top for the last couple of years. So those that have been here a few years only know this type of game play, it already was poor when they started. Your basing your opinion on the rubble that is left, where us oldtimers try to bring back the buildings the was what the rubble was made from.

I agree, and this is what is missing form HiTech's steps.
People loose interest when the development slows down.
That's why I, and the whole squadron of mine, quit a couple of years ago ... maybe three.

[bongaroo]

I think a lot of people who leave are burnt out and declare other reasons ad-hoc; especially the "gameplay in decline" type of reasons.  Human psychology is surreptitious like that. 

Holy Crap!  Your a psychologist too!?!?!?!  [/sarcasm]

All the answers I've seen from people I'd truly consider vets or old timers seem to indicate that the "burn out" isn't the biggest reason or that perhaps there is something accelerating or worsening the "burn out" effect.

...Squadron membership (and player accounts) are directly proportional to the level of participation of the squadron if the members have been flying online for more than 5 years. My squadron suffered a major blow in active membership when we stopped participating in events (FSO). When we had an active effort to get guys out every week for an organized sortie participation was much higher than it is now...

And for all that typing the answer to all our problems is "join a squadron"?  After a few years of play I can honestly say that I'd only enjoy joining about 1 out of 10 or so of the active squadrons in the game.

[Murdr]

Members of the Training Corps are in this thread specifically decrying the sound tactics taught to fighter pilots the world over.

By all means, pull quotes from this thread specifically to back up your comment.

[Anaxogoras]

All the answers I've seen from people I'd truly consider vets or old timers seem to indicate that the "burn out" isn't the biggest reason or that perhaps there is something accelerating or worsening the "burn out" effect.

Yes, that is what they say.  They have chosen to interpret their frustration as "gameplay decline."  It's almost axiomatic that the last place people look for the cause of their frustration is in themselves, and will frequently externalize the problems they create.

All this is not to say that there are no gameplay issues that need addressing, but the image of a once golden pasture of honorable 1vs1 combat is not only illusory, but also counter to what air combat is in the non-virtual world.  This isn't 1916, ya know...it's 1945.

[bongaroo]

Yes, that is what they say.  They have chosen to interpret their frustration as "gameplay decline."  It's almost axiomatic that the last place people look for the cause of their frustration is in themselves, and will frequently externalize the problems they create.

All this is not to say that there are no gameplay issues that need addressing, but the image of a once golden pasture of honorable 1vs1 combat is not only illusory, but also counter to what air combat is in the non-virtual world.  This isn't 1916, ya know...it's 1945.

Wow, seriously your a psychologist?????!?!?!  [/i'm running low on sarcasm here]

Please stop pretending that you can read their minds.