Pulling lead

[moot]

But then he can't see where the bullets went (on film) when he misses. It'll take a while to teach his brain what works and what doesn't, and why.  I think my method is better to start with   Feel free to punch me.

[Delirium]

If he starts from 0 AOT/180 AOT and then slowly works his way to 90 AOT, he will learn with the best tool; his own eye.

[Spatula]

Try getting through these excellent articles:

http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_028a.html
http://www.simhq.com/_air9/air_268a.html
http://www.simhq.com/_air9/air_269a.html

and revisited:
http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_031a.html

[moot]

If he starts from 0 AOT/180 AOT and then slowly works his way to 90 AOT, he will learn with the best tool; his own eye.

I still think he needs to have tracers on to begin with. See their behavior at all those angles and speeds. Watch the films (not possible without tracers) for extra pov's (sometimes first person pov is misleading), slo motion etc. Once that's integrated, he turns em off and uses the force.

[Delirium]

I agree with you Moot, if he is learning the ballistics for the tater. The amount of lead in a 90 degree AOT with the tater can be surprising.

For a 50cal/20mm nose mounted bird, I still feel my suggestion is the best in the long run.

[moot]

Dang, you're right.. I wasn't even thinking about that.  Shots over ~600y would still be worth filming with tracers on for a good initial understanding, though.

[thrila]

Dead 6 shots are by their very nature difficult, my advice is:

-like oldman said, get closer if you can
-If you tend to be undershooting make a conscious effort to apply twice as much lead as you think you need
-practice attacking the offline drones from various angles
-fire short bursts not long ones, if you miss adjust your aim (my own preference is tracers on)
-try to get comfortable firing blind- sometimes you'll have to pull so so much lead the con will be under you nose.  Offlines drones will be handy for this too
- i know a lot of people do this but don't zoom in to shoot- i generally only use this if a con is hard to see against the ground
-If a con is level you can dive below a con then shoot as you are rising, you'll have a larger plane aspect to shoot at and be momentarily closer.  Even in an extended chase this can get you and extra 200-400yrds closer for a short period if the con stays level.

I've just uploaded a film for you crousader, the first 5 mins contains minimal ACM, just pure gunnery dweebery.
http://www.4shared.com/file/81615376/5ceb2540/furballisle2.html

I'll try and hunt a film for a good example of the last tip i mentioned.

[Crousader]

Try getting through these excellent articles:

http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_028a.html
http://www.simhq.com/_air9/air_268a.html
http://www.simhq.com/_air9/air_269a.html

and revisited:
http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_031a.html

Great resources thanks!!

[CAP1]

Oldman is correct, closer is always better.

Here are the films I promised, all from one sortie a few days ago.

When you start the films make sure Use Recorded views is UNCHECKED then us Page Up and Page Down and the Arrow keys to adjust the view until it looks like the screenshot below. That will replicate the view I use to shoot with (I have a button mapped to achieve this ...plus 2 more to adjust the zoom in or out. I only use those when sniping running mustangs     )

(Image removed from quote.)

Film 1

Film 2

Film 3

Film 4

Also slowing down the film below 1x speed is helpful in seeing the shot.

These aren't necessarily the best examples, just the ones from a recent fight. And I'm far from the best shot in the game but I definitely ain't the worst.

what do you do about nose bounce when you're zoomed in that far? i have my dampning, and deadbands up, and i've scaled my inputs back fairly heavily, but it still bounces waaaayyy too much....only zoomed though.

[dtango]

Crousader:

Various good advice given already in this thread but I want to revisit a particular topic.  You commented that you understand the idea that you have to aim where the bandit will be.  However you stated the following as well:

I typically fly planes with nose mounted gun packages, I get well within range (inside D400) I get on the guys six , put him in the middle of my pipper and squeeze.

I bolded the key phrase for emphasis.  Putting the bandit in the middle of your pipper is not aiming and shooting where the bandit is going to be.  Assuming the bandit is turning you are already shooting behind the bandit if you're centering the bandit in your pipper.

Let me second Spatula's post.  Don't let it get lost.  Andy Bush's articles on SimHq are the best ones I have seen on the topic.  The last thread Spatula posted is Andy's most concise gunnery article on the topic.  Here is the link again for it:

http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_031b.html

So back to where to put the bandit in relationship to your pipper.  Andy does a great job laying out rules of thumb for it.  Here's an example worth briefly discussing..


Source: Andy Bush, SimHQ - "Air to Air Gunnery Revisited"

Notice just how far away the bandit is in relationship to the pipper.  The bandit is not anywhere near centered in the pipper because we have to aim and shoot at where the bandit is going to be.  This is "leading" the bandit.

Andy talks about using the concept of bandit wingspan distances for lead.  There is a whole theory around this that Andy elaborates on.  Here the pipper is placed about 3 wingspan distance ahead of the bandit as visually measured from the pipper to the bandit (the pipper and bandit in the same 2D plane) from inside the shooter's cockpit. 

In this specific example the amount of lead used here at 3 wingspans is based on the amount of angle-off of the target's tail the shooter is in relation to the target.  The greater the angle-off, the greater the lead, the further out ahead of the target's flight path the pipper needs to be placed.  The following illustration show's where the center of the pipper would be placed at 1, 2, or 3 wingspans away from the target demonstrating this idea.


Source: Andy Bush, SimHQ - "Air to Air Gunnery Revisited"

The general equation for lead is:

L = Vt x 1000 x sin(angle_off) / Vm

L = amount of lead (mils)
Vt = target velocity (ft/s)
angle_off = angle_off target (degrees)
Vm = average muzzle velocity of the round from firing to impact including your velocity (ft/s)

We mentioned angle_off already above but increasing Vt also means you have to shoot with more lead as well.  In other words if a target was at the same angle_off but travelling at a higher speed than you would need to have to shoot with more lead than would have been the case at a slower speed but the same angle_off.

There are other factors to keep in mind as well: gravity, dispersion, projectile weight etc. but hopefully that whet's your appetite to go study up on Andy's articles .  Just one particular note- Andy talks about designing gunsights from AH.  That was done for an older version of AH so not sure what parts of his talk there still apply or not.


SHOOTING FROM DEAD 6
One comment I think worth mentioning since people keep bringing it up- On shooting from dead-six, there's a factor that complicates the shooting dead-six that a lot folks don't realize and that's the concept of vertical convergence.  Gravity pulls bullets down so guns are actually are set at some angle so that bullets arrive in the center of your pipper (if you were just shooting while flying level) at the convergence distance you desire.  The following is a pic showing a sideview elevation of bullet trajectory for vertical convergence:


Source: Andy Bush, SimHQ - "Air to Air Gunnery Revisited"

In this pic, the gun has been set for convergence at about 300 yards.  The implication of this vertical convergence is that if the target is less than 300 yards than the bullet stream in relationship to the pipper is actually below the center point of the pipper at less than 300 yards.  The closer the target is, the lower the bullet stream is below the center of your pipper.  Therefore if your target is closer than your gun convergence then you will need to put the center of your pipper above your target to hit it.

Here is a short .WMV that I did to illustrate the point (guns set at 300 yds convergence on a P-51D).  Note where the bullet impacts are in relationship to the gunsite depending on how close the target is to my plane.  The closer the target, the lower beneath the center of the pipper the bullets hit.

http://brauncomustangs.org/films/gunrange.wmv

Hope that's helpful!

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

[Crousader]

Crousader:

Various good advice given already in this thread but I want to revisit a particular topic.  You commented that you understand the idea that you have to aim where the bandit will be.  However you stated the following as well:

I bolded the key phrase for emphasis.  Putting the bandit in the middle of your pipper is not aiming and shooting where the bandit is going to be.  Assuming the bandit is turning you are already shooting behind the bandit if you're centering the bandit in your pipper.

Let me second Spatula's post.  Don't let it get lost.  Andy Bush's articles on SimHq are the best ones I have seen on the topic.  The last thread Spatula posted is Andy's most concise gunnery article on the topic.  Here is the link again for it:

http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_031b.html

So back to where to put the bandit in relationship to your pipper.  Andy does a great job laying out rules of thumb for it.  Here's an example worth briefly discussing..

(Image removed from quote.)
Source: Andy Bush, SimHQ - "Air to Air Gunnery Revisited"

Notice just how far away the bandit is in relationship to the pipper.  The bandit is not anywhere near centered in the pipper because we have to aim and shoot at where the bandit is going to be.  This is "leading" the bandit.

Andy talks about using the concept of bandit wingspan distances for lead.  There is a whole theory around this that Andy elaborates on.  Here the pipper is placed about 3 wingspan distance ahead of the bandit as visually measured from the pipper to the bandit (the pipper and bandit in the same 2D plane) from inside the shooter's cockpit. 

In this specific example the amount of lead used here at 3 wingspans is based on the amount of angle-off of the target's tail the shooter is in relation to the target.  The greater the angle-off, the greater the lead, the further out ahead of the target's flight path the pipper needs to be placed.  The following illustration show's where the center of the pipper would be placed at 1, 2, or 3 wingspans away from the target demonstrating this idea.

(Image removed from quote.)
Source: Andy Bush, SimHQ - "Air to Air Gunnery Revisited"

The general equation for lead is:

L = Vt x 1000 x sin(angle_off) / Vm

L = amount of lead (mils)
Vt = target velocity (ft/s)
angle_off = angle_off target (degrees)
Vm = average muzzle velocity of the round from firing to impact including your velocity (ft/s)

We mentioned angle_off already above but increasing Vt also means you have to shoot with more lead as well.  In other words if a target was at the same angle_off but travelling at a higher speed than you would need to have to shoot with more lead than would have been the case at a slower speed but the same angle_off.

There are other factors to keep in mind as well: gravity, dispersion, projectile weight etc. but hopefully that whet's your appetite to go study up on Andy's articles .  Just one particular note- Andy talks about designing gunsights from AH.  That was done for an older version of AH so not sure what parts of his talk there still apply or not.


SHOOTING FROM DEAD 6
One comment I think worth mentioning since people keep bringing it up- On shooting from dead-six, there's a factor that complicates the shooting dead-six that a lot folks don't realize and that's the concept of vertical convergence.  Gravity pulls bullets down so guns are actually are set at some angle so that bullets arrive in the center of your pipper (if you were just shooting while flying level) at the convergence distance you desire.  The following is a pic showing a sideview elevation of bullet trajectory for vertical convergence:

(Image removed from quote.)
Source: Andy Bush, SimHQ - "Air to Air Gunnery Revisited"

In this pic, the gun has been set for convergence at about 300 yards.  The implication of this vertical convergence is that if the target is less than 300 yards than the bullet stream in relationship to the pipper is actually below the center point of the pipper at less than 300 yards.  The closer the target is, the lower the bullet stream is below the center of your pipper.  Therefore if your target is closer than your gun convergence then you will need to put the center of your pipper above your target to hit it.

Here is a short .WMV that I did to illustrate the point (guns set at 300 yds convergence on a P-51D).  Note where the bullet impacts are in relationship to the gunsite depending on how close the target is to my plane.  The closer the target, the lower beneath the center of the pipper the bullets hit.

http://brauncomustangs.org/films/gunrange.wmv

Hope that's helpful!

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs





Thanks for the input. I hadn't even thought of the fact that the bullet stream is angled to converge vertically at the point you set!

 I know about lead BUT you are correct, because of my difficulties with leading, G effects and losing the target below my cowl. I tend to search for the dead six shot hoping that all of these factors would be lessened if not negated by being right behind my opponent. I have been proven wrong time and time again

[Dawger]

what do you do about nose bounce when you're zoomed in that far? i have my dampning, and deadbands up, and i've scaled my inputs back fairly heavily, but it still bounces waaaayyy too much....only zoomed though.

I've been flying with maximum sensitivity in all axis for quite a long time and I've always flown with the same model stick. The end result is a very light touch on the controls. If you have a tight grip overcontrolling will result (same as in a high-performance airplane in real life). That is the first (and most important) step in reducing nose bounce. If you need more than one finger and a thumb to fly then you probably have too tight a grip.

The zoom is very short. I have it mapped so that it is in zoom when I hold the button and on release it returns to normal view so I am only in that view for actual shooting. The field of view is too small for anything other than the shot and on snapshots I don't zoom. A true snapshot won't be helped by zoom anyway.



The best way to learn to shoot is by shooting. Offline drones, DA furball lake, a buddy willing to let you shoot at him.

Theory is great but there is no substitute for doing.

And I am a recent convert to no tracers (~ 6 months). My gunnery in Warbirds was excellent but I spent 2 years in AH with average gunnery. Turn the tracers off and within a few weeks my gunnery improved 1000%.

Now I'm making shots that are instinctive and extremely accurate. I can't imagine ever turning them back on.

[Traveler]

One more thing.....

I have two separate buttons for machine guns and cannons (I pretty much only fly P38). I only use cannon for low G, close in shooting. The cannon drop is such that under more than 2 G you can't see the target and hit it with cannon. You are basically guessing (which you can get good at....most Luftwaffe flyers get good at this). I use the 50 cals for most shots and the P38 package usually doesn't need the 20MM to get a quick kill. I doubt I used the cannon for any of the shots in the films but who knows.

The ammo counter in the film tells a different story,  You do use the 20MM, the order of the film according to the ammo counter is also different then the order of the films as numbered.  According to the ammo counter the order of the films is film 1, film 4, film 2,  Film 3 will not down load properly.  according to the film you presented, the "quick Kill" were all aided by the 20MM.  Who Knows?  Anyone reviewing the films knows, just zoom in inside the cockpit and look at the ammo counters. 

[Traveler]

Turn tracers off, go offline and work on the drones until you can 'one pass them' from every angle.

Practice makes perfect, there isn't a magic button to cause you to suddenly make easy kills.

Practice does make perfect, whether tracers are on or off if you can make one pass killes at every angle, tracers won't matter.

[Krusty]

The SimHQ images don't apply in every aspect. The real guns aimed up, the bullets arched upwards, then down to land on the target. They didn't pass straight out then down. AH models them so they pass up then down.

This means if you're flying in a plane with bad ballistics like a 109K-4 with 30mm gun, and set it all the way at max distance, the round can actually "lob" so high on the way to the target you will miss if lined up perfectly at a target only 250-300 yards away. My best suggestion on this is to record your films, note the distance you get killshots at (NOT the distance you open fire, or want to open fire, but the actual distance the target goes "boom") and set your convergence to THAT distance.

Regarding tracers: They clutter your screen. The white trails don't really tell you if the rounds are going too high or too low except in extreme cases. In my experience, I could almost never tell if my rounds needed a slight adjustment up or down. Instead, learning how to shoot with the tracers off has given me a much better hit% and a better chance of killing a target. I no longer waste my concentration on where the fuzzy smoke lines are and trying to figure out if they're in front of or behind the target, instead I focus on setting up a gunsight image where I think I can fire my guns with a "kill shot". I equate tracers more to spraying and praying than to lining up shots the proper way.

Just my opinion on tracers.