The Basic M4 (Sherman)

[Crash Orange]

The average German soldier was a patriot to his country and like our soldiers today they have sworn an allegiance to the country.

I agree that the merits of the SS have little to do with the merits of various panzers as weapons of war, but since you insist on defending the SS...

We're not talking about average German soldiers, we're talking about the SS, who were volunteers. Totally different. Waffen SS just changed what their job was, not who they were. They were still brutal racist b***ards every one. If they weren't, they wouldn't have joined the SS. And plenty of people moved back and forth from fighting units to extermination camp guards, etc., during the course of the war.

The SS was branded a criminal organization for good reason: from top to bottom it was as much like the Mafia as an army. Recruits were inducted in a secret mystical death-cult ceremony just like "made men." Look at how Sepp Dietrich had to "make his bones" just like any wiseguy - officers in the Heer weren't required to engage in political assassination in order to be promoted, but in the SS that was just par for the course.

Agreed that the Waffen SS was not the poster child of a compassionate soldier but they did their job brutally well.

No one's disputed that they were skilled in battle. As for not being "poster children," no, I suppose not, but if all you can say about atrocities of a scale and barbarity unprecedented in modern history is that their perpetrators "weren't poster children" I think you need to reboot your sense of outrage. Leaving genocide and ethnic cleansing out of it - which is itself going too far, because the Waffen SS had their hands up to the elbows in it - look at, for example, the reprisals in the wake of Heydrich's assassination, or their behavior during the Warsaw Uprising that was so appallingly sadistic that Genghis Khan and Pol Pot would have blanched at the sight of it.

(No, I'm not exaggerating. And yes, since then the commies have at times been just about as awful, but that changes nothing.)

Just look how they handled Parisian groups. They did it rather brutally and I'm sure if the US handled the taliban and it's allies like the Germans did the conflict would be over.

I doubt it. The Russians tried that approach in Afghanistan and it didn't work out so well. Sometimes terror can be an effective, if immoral, tool, but you have to make sure your measures are appropriate for the situation and the nature of the victim population. Germany might conceivably have won the war with the USSR if its policy toward civilians in the conquered territories hadn't been so atrocious; by 1941 many Ukrainians would probably have joined in gladly  with anything that would get them out from under Stalin if the new regime hadn't looked every bit as bad.

[Die Hard]

Crash Orange, your post smells a little of hypocrisy. The Waffen-SS weren't the only racist "b***ards" on the battlefield in the 1940s. And when it comes to brutality; who killed more civilians, the Waffen-SS or the USAAF/RAF? I don't actually know the answer to that question myself, and that alone is saying something. Being burned to death in a barn by the SS, or being burned to death in your home by the RAF; which is more brutal?

I think the important fact here is that WWII was a brutal war, and no party to it was completely innocent.

[BigPlay]

I agree that the merits of the SS have little to do with the merits of various panzers as weapons of war, but since you insist on defending the SS...

We're not talking about average German soldiers, we're talking about the SS, who were volunteers. Totally different. Waffen SS just changed what their job was, not who they were. They were still brutal racist b***ards every one. If they weren't, they wouldn't have joined the SS. And plenty of people moved back and forth from fighting units to extermination camp guards, etc., during the course of the war.

The SS was branded a criminal organization for good reason: from top to bottom it was as much like the Mafia as an army. Recruits were inducted in a secret mystical death-cult ceremony just like "made men." Look at how Sepp Dietrich had to "make his bones" just like any wiseguy - officers in the Heer weren't required to engage in political assassination in order to be promoted, but in the SS that was just par for the course.

No one's disputed that they were skilled in battle. As for not being "poster children," no, I suppose not, but if all you can say about atrocities of a scale and barbarity unprecedented in modern history is that their perpetrators "weren't poster children" I think you need to reboot your sense of outrage. Leaving genocide and ethnic cleansing out of it - which is itself going too far, because the Waffen SS had their hands up to the elbows in it - look at, for example, the reprisals in the wake of Heydrich's assassination, or their behavior during the Warsaw Uprising that was so appallingly sadistic that Genghis Khan and Pol Pot would have blanched at the sight of it.

(No, I'm not exaggerating. And yes, since then the commies have at times been just about as awful, but that changes nothing.)

I doubt it. The Russians tried that approach in Afghanistan and it didn't work out so well. Sometimes terror can be an effective, if immoral, tool, but you have to make sure your measures are appropriate for the situation and the nature of the victim population. Germany might conceivably have won the war with the USSR if its policy toward civilians in the conquered territories hadn't been so atrocious; by 1941 many Ukrainians would probably have joined in gladly  with anything that would get them out from under Stalin if the new regime hadn't looked every bit as bad.

 The Marines are also a volunteer organization as the Navy Seals and the Green Beret .The SS was an elite fighting unit that many wanted to be a part of not because they had racists ideas. Was the SS racist....maybe to some extent, I guess you can also label the American soldier during the Viet Nam conflict as raciest as well because I know many veterans that did not think the Viet Nam people of any worth ,also against the Japanese because the Americans hated the Japanese with the same passion . There were members of the SS that came from various countries as well including Great Britian .  If they were all guilty of war crimes then I guess Joachim Piper would still be in jail or hung. Just because the head of the SS was a total fool and as evil as they get doesn't mean the lot was like minded. SS guards and the Waffen SS did not rotate from concentration camp guard back into the Waffen SS, another thing you need to read up on.


 I also never said they were poster children, I said they weren't. Also the atrocities being the worst in history is also something you need to read up on. Stalin alone had over 30 million people put to death, the Japanese were on most scales even more barbaric that the SS as far as the Chinese are concerned. They made chemical experiments on complete towns.

But of course the atrocities the Germans did were much worse because I am assuming that you have some personal areas of interests than the Russians or Chinese point of view. I also guess you think that the Israeli Mossad has every right to assassinate whom ever they want for whatever reason as long as it's for Israel's best interest. but I do agree that if the Germans weren't so brutal against the Russian civilians they may have had their support. I agree that the heads of the SS were a rather distorted and unrealistic bunch but to lump the common soldier into that bunch is not accurate . Comparting the Russo/Afghan campain has no bearing to the German anti partisan conflict. First we supported the Afghans with arms of all kinds and many like the stinger missile played a huge part in defeating the Russian helicopters. The partisan's had no such help.The problem with that conflict is the Russians  tried using a sledgehammer to kill a Nat. The topic was on the M4 Shermans and people commenting on how the Panther should be added ratherthen the Sherman and then the Nazi thing got brought into the equation. My point is that people should read some objective material and stop going off their emotions and or lack of knowledge before making statements that bring up pointless arguments like this. I don't really care what you think about the Waffen SS because I base my information on books that I have read rather then emotion.

[BigKev03]

WOW, I must have missed something, we went from the M4 Basic Sherman to the SS???   But to elaborate on BigPlay's perspective.

The SS was made of of the polictical arm and the Waffen SS.  The polictical arm was basically Hitler's body guard and the enforcers of the Nazi party and were mainly the arm repsonsible for the Holocaust.  The Waffen SS was the figthing force of the SS and was the best the germans had.  True the Waffen SS did commit war crimes as it was following orders from Himmler/Hitler.  As BigPlay said they were not poster boys but they were an elite fighting force that the allies hated to face due to the tactical doctrine they used combined with the fact that the Waffen SS was better equipment and armed than most german army units.  In addition, they were well trained and led.  Now due to the indoctronation of SS troopers they did tend to have the old "win or die mentality" and that is what the allies feared most.  However, this attitude did cost many a germans their lives when it come to combat operations.  No one tank or weapons system made the SS war gods.  It was a combination of training, weapons and tactics.  After WWII many Waffen SS troopers and officers joined the French Foreign Legion and faught the VC in French-IndoChina and put it on "Charlie".  But then again each nation has its elite fighting forces and each is unique in what it brings to the battlefield.

Out
Bigkev

[Die Hard]

WOW, I must have missed something, we went from the M4 Basic Sherman to the SS???  

That's how things go here sometimes. It's unfortunate.

[BigPlay]

WOW, I must have missed something, we went from the M4 Basic Sherman to the SS???  



You should read back BigKev. Diehard posted some very comprehensive material that obviously comes from reading many books on the subject. He spent a larger amount of time trying to explain to some why their information is tainted (IMO) and his.

[Angus]

Diehard:
"My point was (again) that in 1945 there was no generation gap in tank production, - the allies had caught up.

How many times do I have to agree with that before you accept it?"

Exactly

And:
"You keep rambling on about tractors and T-65's, whatever that is, I'm going to assume you mean the T-62. No amount of rambling from you is going to change the fact that when the Centurion entered service in 1945 is was inferior to the IS-3. That Israeli uparmored, upgunned and generally upgraded Centurions later were victorious against T-54/55's and T-62's is completely irrelevant. The T-62 is lighter than the IS-3, has less armor and a smaller gun. After WWII the Soviets abandoned heavy tanks and instead concentrated on fast "mass attack" medium tanks like the T-54/55 and T-62. The T-62 is 11 tons lighter than the original Centurion, and 7 tons lighter than the IS-3."

My point about the centurion was the benefit of something that could at least be touched in the field. Simple and rugged. The biggest issue is probably the tracks and suspension. This is where the German Panther was a nightmare.
As for the combat performance, that 1945/1948 tank was still a tank of that age, facing the Russian tanks that started rolling off the line in 1961. The T-62 replaced the JS (BTW, the JS was used in the six day war).  It is a few tonnes lighter, and it ONLY has a 115mm smoothbore gun, that is correct.  But when 150 tanks get stopped by 2, it still is hard to overlook 

[Die Hard]

My point about the centurion was the benefit of something that could at least be touched in the field. Simple and rugged.

My point was that the Centurion didn't stay "simple", but grew more and more complex over the years. You didn't accept that.

The biggest issue is probably the tracks and suspension. This is where the German Panther was a nightmare.

Why do you say that? Have you learned nothing from this thread?

[Bronk]

Crash Orange, your post smells a little of hypocrisy. The Waffen-SS weren't the only racist "b***ards" on the battlefield in the 1940s. And when it comes to brutality; who killed more civilians, the Waffen-SS or the USAAF/RAF? I don't actually know the answer to that question myself, and that alone is saying something. Being burned to death in a barn by the SS, or being burned to death in your home by the RAF; which is more brutal?

I think the important fact here is that WWII was a brutal war, and no party to it was completely innocent.

Yup those bastards in the allied air forces could drop bombs on either the jewish germans.... ones with a more gypsy lineage or aryan lineage. That norden bombsight was hellishly accurate.

I'm betting if skuzzy checks the quoted posters IP it is of Norwegian origin. You know the ... the country that didn't surrender in WWII? 

[BigPlay]

See Rule #4

[Skuzzy]

Either get it back on topic, or stop adding to the thread.

The personal attack nonsense stops now.

[Anaxogoras]

Either get it back on topic, or stop adding to the thread.

I agree, skuzzy.  The basic M4 would be very easy for HTC to add to the game, and would've been great to have for our current scenario.

[Die Hard]

Yup those bastards in the allied air forces could drop bombs on either the jewish germans.... ones with a more gypsy lineage or aryan lineage. That norden bombsight was hellishly accurate.

I was more thinking of these guys and their plight for equality, which lasted well into the 1960s.




Germany wasn't the only white supremacist nation during WWII.


But all these emotionally laden irrelevancies are disruptive to the thread; lets get back to discussing the tanks.

[Angus]

The base one would be very simple. Just the gun (looks) and the damage modelling.
I cannot resist thinking about the floating Sherman though
As for other tanks, well, I guess other threads then

[Die Hard]

As for other tanks, well, I guess other threads then

Then you have misunderstood the first poster. This thread isn't just about the Sherman, but how it compares to other tanks; specifically in the MA.