The P-51... And her flaps.

[SectorNine50]

This topic I know has been talked about many times before in various threads, but I've never seen one specifically about it.  I've heard arguments to both sides, and I'm creating this to curb my curiosity more than anything.

So, the question is:  Are the P-51's flap performance in-game true to life?

I have no argument either way, and honestly I don't care much if the plane gets changed in-game.  I think it's a challenging and fun aircraft the way it is now.  However what I will say is that I notice that the last 2 or so notches of flaps don't seem to help the turn radius all that much compared to the other flap settings.  From what I've heard and read makes me believe that perhaps there is an error in the 51's flight model in-game, but not being an expert, I cannot be certain.

Let the debate begin!  I'd like to hear what you guys have to say about it.

[Steve]

This topic I know has been talked about many times before in various threads, but I've never seen one specifically about it.  I've heard arguments to both sides, and I'm creating this to curb my curiosity more than anything.

So, the question is:  Are the P-51's flap performance in-game true to life?

I have no argument either way, and honestly I don't care much if the plane gets changed in-game.  I think it's a challenging and fun aircraft the way it is now.  However what I will say is that I notice that the last 2 or so notches of flaps don't seem to help the turn radius all that much compared to the other flap settings.  From what I've heard and read makes me believe that perhaps there is an error in the 51's flight model in-game, but not being an expert, I cannot be certain.

Let the debate begin!  I'd like to hear what you guys have to say about it.

I can't say what how it performs to the real life counterpart but you gain little turn radius improvement after two notches of flaps, relative  to turn RATE performance and drag penalty. JUst my opinion, I fly the pony a bit.

[moot]

SectorNine50, you should say what you've read that makes you believe that there could be something wrong with the 51.

[SectorNine50]

Dang, the HTC website is very slow right now...

I can't say what how it performs to the real life counterpart but you gain little turn radius improvement after two notches of flaps, relative  to turn RATE performance and drag penalty. JUst my opinion, I fly the pony a bit.

I agree, the last 3 or so notches on the Pony seem to be trival.

SectorNine50, you should say what you've read that makes you believe that there could be something wrong with the 51.

What I've read makes me believe that there could be something wrong with the modeling on the P-51.

[moot]

So you have no references?

[SectorNine50]

So you have no references?

Ohhh!  That's what your asking for, that makes much more sense.  1 AM here, excuse the lapse in intelligence.

I brought up this question out of sheer curiosity as someone had mentioned a "bug" in the flight model of the P-51 in another thread, I made this one so I wouldn't hijack the other one.  What was brought up is that the Jug, which has a much higher wingloading, turns much better when than the P-51.  However, since the P-47 has slotted flaps, I figured that might make the difference.  What has bugged me is how (what seems to be) every other aircraft's flaps seem to make a large difference in lift every notch.  This doesn't seem true with the P-51, it actually feels like after the 2nd or 3rd notch the flaps are just for looks.

I don't know enough about aerodynamics to make an accurate argument, but this topic intrigued me enough that I was hoping someone could enlighten me and perhaps start a discussion to get it fixed if a problem exists.  I'm a sucker for realism so for better or for worse (or maybe neither) I'd like to try to figure it out.

[Bodhi]

I think you are misunderstanding the use of flaps.  They are there to allow for continued handling at low speeds that are used during landings.  Not all aircraft were equipped with flaps designed to increase performance.  Some were, some were marginally, and some just weren't.

[Anaxogoras]

What has bugged me is how (what seems to be) every other aircraft's flaps seem to make a large difference in lift every notch.

Have you tested this assumption?  There are many aircraft in AH that receive no benefit whatsoever in turn-rate from flaps, some even turn more slowly.

[Cthulhu]

Went looking for flap info and found this:
http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/P-51.html

Pretty sure most Pony guru's have already seen this, but it's full of good info. Doesn't really answer the OP's question though.

(Check out a "fat & balding" Lee J. Cobb)

[CAP1]

i think that most any aircraft, be it military, commercial, or civilian, you'll find that once you go past 20 degrees of flaps, you're only increasing drag.


 one of our cfi's should chime in shortly though.....

[BnZs]

i think that most any aircraft, be it military, commercial, or civilian, you'll find that once you go past 20 degrees of flaps, you're only increasing drag.


 one of our cfi's should chime in shortly though.....

Lift continues to increase, but yes, the lift to drag ratio gets much worse

[Cthulhu]

Lift continues to increase, but yes, the lift to drag ratio gets much worse

C_L increases, but Lift may or may not.
In other words, C_L does increase with increased flaps, but like BnZ said, drag increases disproportionately, so unless you have huge additional power at your disposal (or can lower flaps at higher speeds), the increase in drag lowers your speed to the point where there is negligible to no increase in actual lift. And as Anaxogoras said, there may even be a reduction in lift. Also consider that to overcome the nose-down pitching moment generated by large flap deflections, you need higher elevator down-force as well. This will generate extra induced drag on the horizontal tail, so the drag just piles up.

[BnZs]

C_L increases, but Lift may or may not.
 Also consider that to overcome the nose-down pitching moment generated by large flap deflections,

I'm glad you brought that up...I'd give my eye teeth for large flap deflections in AHII to cause nose-down pitching, instead of having to reach over the keyboard and input full nose-down trim once I get into a slow fight w/flaps....

[Cthulhu]

I'm glad you brought that up...I'd give my eye teeth for large flap deflections in AHII to cause nose-down pitching, instead of having to reach over the keyboard and input full nose-down trim once I get into a slow fight w/flaps....

I think you've already got him wrapped up there Chief. Ease off the stick a bit and the "Red" guy should magically appear. Unless of course you're using full down-elevator to keep that 6g turn from becoming a 9g turn. If so, then the rest of us are doomed.

[BnZs]

I think you've already got him wrapped up there Chief. Ease off the stick a bit and the "Red" guy should magically appear. Unless of course you're using full down-elevator to keep that 6g turn from becoming a 9g turn. If so, then the rest of us are doomed.

The nose up thing is kind of annoying if you are constantly dropping and dumping several notches of flaps...I dunno about you, but having to apply back-pressure on the stick is fairly natural, if I have to push forward on the stick to keep the nose from rising, all sorts of bounce and the gunnery goes to hell. Trim input takes time and finding the right key. I need more buttons so I can map one to trim I suppose.