Author Topic: P51 wing loading  (Read 15807 times)

Offline BnZs

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Re: P51 wing loading
« Reply #75 on: January 28, 2009, 11:26:15 AM »
"--merely that the equations used to model the performance of all the aircraft may make some facets of some planes more conspicuous. "

BTW, the P-51 is not the only plane that suffers. The Ki-61 also turns below actual tested parameters in AHII.

OTOH, F4Us and especially the 109s are if anything, doing better than the historical birds.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2009, 11:29:58 AM by BnZs »
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Offline Getback

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Re: P51 wing loading
« Reply #76 on: January 28, 2009, 11:32:15 AM »
Was that the same patch that rendered the F4U a super-plane and the 190's flaps worthless?

If I understand correctly, and I wasn't there, the F4U4 was a super plane at the beginning of AH. Then it got tamed. I guess now it's super again. I don't fly many perked planes. Each time I do I lose them. Especially the C hog and tempest.

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Offline Stoney

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Re: P51 wing loading
« Reply #77 on: January 28, 2009, 12:08:31 PM »
P-51 had higher stick forces than the P-47.

Basically, you're still arguing that test and combat pilots of the WWII era didn't have a *clue* about turn performance, not even so much as the average AHII pilots knows.

I absolutely did not say that, would never contend that, and ultimately had no intention of comparing the P-51 to any aircraft.  If you'll re-read the excerpted portion of my post, and understand exactly why I chose the language that I chose, you'll understand that what I was talking about was perception.  We argue absolute performance of these aircraft because that's the realm in which we fly them, and in doing so, remove our discussions from the context with which our historical evidence is based. 

For example, if we read in a pilot's memoirs, that a plane was more "maneuverable" than another plane, how should we interpret that statement with respect to the absolute performance of either aircraft, in the absence of any other information? 
« Last Edit: January 28, 2009, 12:10:03 PM by Stoney »
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Offline BnZs

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Re: P51 wing loading
« Reply #78 on: January 28, 2009, 12:45:42 PM »
We are hardly talking only about offhand comments in some WWII diary. We are considering formal reports from flight test pilots, which are diametrically opposite of the results we see in AHII. This combined with indisputable oddities like the P-51 being out-turned by the significantly higher-wingloaded P-47 D-11 and out-turned with flaps by an airplane (D9) with much, much greater wingloading and what should be *worse* maneuvering flaps is a solid enough case that something is wrong. The fact that an identical odd phenomenon occurs with at least one other aircraft, the Ki-61, is further proof.

The fact that the differences in maneuverability between the P-47 and P-51 were noted by Luftwaffe pilots but are practically nonexistent in AHII, indeed, the Jug has the slight advantage, is icing on the cake.

I absolutely did not say that, would never contend that, and ultimately had no intention of comparing the P-51 to any aircraft.  If you'll re-read the excerpted portion of my post, and understand exactly why I chose the language that I chose, you'll understand that what I was talking about was perception.  We argue absolute performance of these aircraft because that's the realm in which we fly them, and in doing so, remove our discussions from the context with which our historical evidence is based. 

For example, if we read in a pilot's memoirs, that a plane was more "maneuverable" than another plane, how should we interpret that statement with respect to the absolute performance of either aircraft, in the absence of any other information? 
« Last Edit: January 28, 2009, 12:55:44 PM by BnZs »
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Offline RTHolmes

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Re: P51 wing loading
« Reply #79 on: January 28, 2009, 02:48:07 PM »
1. The P-47D-11 out-turns the P-51 *without* flaps etc.

2. Full flaps are *NOT* useless in ACM in AHII since it is more than possible to use them successfully etc.

1. sure the D11 outturns the B pony, but only marginally. all the later models are outturned by both ponies, by a decent margin. consistent with lw pilot reports that the pony outturns the jug, because over the course of the war, on average, this would have been true. perhaps theres something amiss with the D11 model? I'm sure if you have test data which shows smaller turn radius for 51s vs D11s HT would look at it.

2. well, lancstukas are used successfully in AH, and about as realistic as floating around on the deck in a jug at 100kts with full flaps out in hostile airspace.


edit:
Quote from: USAAF
Flight Test Engineering Branch
Memo Report No. Eng-47-1734-A
24 April 1944

FLIGHT TESTS ON THE NORTH AMERICAN
P-51B-5-NA AIRPLANE, AAF NO. 43-6883

"The airplane is very maneuverable with good controllability at indicated speeds to 400 MPH. The stability about all axes is good and the rate of roll is excellent, however, the radius of turn is fairly large for a fighter. The cockpit layout is excellent, but visibility is poor on the ground and only fair in level flight. "
« Last Edit: January 28, 2009, 03:00:08 PM by RTHolmes »
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Offline BnZs

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Re: P51 wing loading
« Reply #80 on: January 28, 2009, 04:38:22 PM »
1. sure the D11 outturns the B pony, but only marginally. all the later models are outturned by both ponies, by a decent margin. consistent with lw pilot reports that the pony outturns the jug, because over the course of the war, on average, this would have been true. perhaps theres something amiss with the D11 model? I'm sure if you have test data which shows smaller turn radius for 51s vs D11s HT would look at it.

No, All P-47s loaded reasonably light will consistently win a turning contest with P-51s. Full flaps are not needed. The D11 is even more advantaged than the rest of them is all. And remember, the wingloading advantage of the P-51D vs. the D11 is comparable to that of the F4U-1A vs. the P-51.

"The stability about all axes is good and the rate of roll is excellent, however, the radius of turn is fairly large for a fighter."


Entirely true when comparing the Mustang to a P-40, P-38, and especially the sweetheart amongst them, the Spitfire. However, we are talking about the turn performance relative such things as P-47s and Typhoons.

I'm sure if you have test data which shows smaller turn radius for 51s vs D11s HT would look at it.

You'd think so.....






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Offline Stoney

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Re: P51 wing loading
« Reply #81 on: January 28, 2009, 05:53:32 PM »
You'd think so.....

(Image removed from quote.)






You know there are other reports on that website that contradict that graphic.  Even the report in which it was first presented states this:

"In circumstances where the ability to turn quickly or tightly are infinitely variable, and where two aircraft are nearly the same, such as the Tempest V and Thunderbolt II, a great deal depends on the ability of the pilots. Speed must be taken into account if the results are going to be of any real value.

For example, if a Tempest dives on a Thunderbolt with an overtaking speed of only 50 mph, the Thunderbolt will easily be able to avoid the attack by turning, although at the same speed in the hands of equally competent pilots, the Tempest will outmanoeuvre the Thunderbolt. This advantage, however, is no by any means so apparent at high altitudes, due to the greater engine efficiency of the Thunderbolt above 25,000ft.

Similarly, where low-altitude and high-altitude fighters are compared any advantage shown by the former will be reduced as the high-altitude fighter gets nearer to its best operational altitude. After taking all these considerations into account, the position of the aircraft relative to each other will be seen from the diagram.

Once again, the Spitfire maintains top place, followed by the Mustang, Meteor, Tempest and Thunderbolt. Too much regard to this order should not be paid, particularly by the individual who will angrily recall the occasion when he out-turned a Meteor when flying his Tempest. This sort of thing is inevitable, but we can only repeat that where the circumstances are common to both aircraft, these positions are not far wrong.

First prize to the Spitfire XIV.
" ( quoted from  http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/sl-wade.html )

That graphic is exactly what I was referring to earlier.  First, it is far from quantitative test data.  It is merely a graphical presentation of the perceived relative turning circles of those aircraft.  Like I said before, there is another comparison that states the P-51B and P-47C turning circles are almost equal.  The is almost no quantitative test data that measures turn performance.  Its a quality quite like roll rate, where comparitive statements dominate the reports instead of degrees of roll/sec. 

Finally, you keep bringing up the topic of wingloading, and while it is a useful tool for comparison, it is not the panacea for turning ability you seem to think it is.  There are a myriad of other factors that contribute to the turning behavior of an aircraft.  If we compute the difference in wing-loading at typical combat weights, you could say that the P-47 possesses 17% higher wing-loading, but it would not be accurate to say that the P-51 turns 17% better, or to make any comparison at all, other than to say the Mustang has lower wing-loading.  To say that it is curious that a lower wing-loaded aircraft turns worse or the same as a higher wing-loaded aircraft is rational.  But, there are examples of this. 

Another factor that I've discussed before is the airfoil difference.  Laminar airfoils achieve their highest lift/drag ratios over a very narrow spectrum of angles of attack.  Inside of their "buckets", they are very efficient, much more so than turbulent airfoils.  Outside of their buckets, they are very inefficient, and profile drag in most cases is worse than turbulent airfoils at the same angles-of-attack.  The P-51 airfoil displays much higher profile drag at high angles-of-attack than the P-47 airfoil.  Perhaps this is significant enough to reduce the P-51's turning circle.  I don't know--but it could be a factor that retards the Pony's turning performance.

What I do believe is that if HTC thought there was something wrong with the way the P-51 turned, he would tweak the flight model, the aircraft model, or otherwise admit something amiss.  Just be careful about how you form opinions based on historical reporting, be it technical or otherwise.  Look what happened to Kurfurst  :O

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Offline RTHolmes

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Re: P51 wing loading
« Reply #82 on: January 28, 2009, 06:35:57 PM »
PS. Thunderbolt II in the diagram is RAF for D25 ;)
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Offline Urchin

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Re: P51 wing loading
« Reply #83 on: January 28, 2009, 07:18:43 PM »
So 2.07 was the patch that drastically affected several planes. 

The 109 and F4u (all of them, not only the F4u4) were dramatically improved, the P51 and 190 got much much worse.

Offline SectorNine50

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Re: P51 wing loading
« Reply #84 on: January 28, 2009, 09:17:44 PM »
So 2.07 was the patch that drastically affected several planes. 

The 109 and F4u (all of them, not only the F4u4) were dramatically improved, the P51 and 190 got much much worse.
What are the similarities between the 109 and F4U, and the P-51 and 190?  Perhaps that will let us know what change produced these effects.

EDIT:
Google search found that both the 109 and the F4U have slotted flaps, while the P-51 and 190 have combat flaps and split flaps respectively.  So whatever this patch did, favored slotted flaps... a lot...
« Last Edit: January 28, 2009, 10:01:08 PM by SectorNine50 »
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Offline BnZs

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Re: P51 wing loading
« Reply #85 on: January 28, 2009, 10:32:23 PM »
Interesting how you ask for data, say you're sure if I had some data indicating an error, X would happen, then say the data from the period doesn't exist or is wrong. Sorry, the time machine is out for repairs, thus I cannot travel back to the '40s, kipe an in-service Mustang, and then fly it in the tightest possible circle around HTC HQ with a nun, a priest, and a representative from the department of weights and measures there to put the tape to it....

What are the similarities between the 109 and F4U, and the P-51 and 190?  Perhaps that will let us know what change produced these effects.

EDIT:
Google search found that both the 109 and the F4U have slotted flaps, while the P-51 and 190 have combat flaps and split flaps respectively.  So whatever this patch did, favored slotted flaps... a lot...

Remember that the heavier loaded Dora9, which does not compete with the P-51 in turning in no flaps configuration, turns a smaller radius in full flaps condition, despite the split flaps, which are very poor flaps in terms of L/D ratio. They are used largely because they increase the nose-down pitching moment less than other styles of flaps.  :huh

The there was a test by Widewing. He showed that even though the AHII P-51 has much less drag than the 109K-4 with flaps stowed, apparently somehow it has more drag with one notch of flaps deployed. A simple and inexplicable rise in drag in level flight, nothing to do with relative power loading between the two airplanes or airfoil efficiency at high AoA.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2009, 10:43:48 PM by BnZs »
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Offline bozon

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Re: P51 wing loading
« Reply #86 on: January 29, 2009, 03:01:19 AM »
The figure that BnZ posted is ridiculous. It is nothing more than someone's schematic impression of the general turning ability. In AH people measure minimum turning radius in a way no real plane will be tested. The planes are flow with WEP on, right on the edge of the stall, high torque, nose up high in the sky and a wing dipped low. In real life this is madness (or Sparta?) - a sure way to get yourself killed by a super-nasty stall.

In many of the comparative tests, the planes were flown in close "follow the leader" style. The leader makes its maneuvers and the other tries to keep his position, then switch parts. These are completely different conditions. It tests the turning circle in more of a "given constant speed" manner, which is likely a little higher than for the absolute minimum turning radius.

The effect of flaps is a completely separate discussion.

What is being argued here is the correct aerodynamic behavior in the most difficult conditions to simulate. HTC calculates the physics of its models and the impression I get is that they use the same physics for all models. If P51 turned better in real life, you have to be able to explain EXACTLY why it turned better, so the flaw in the model can be corrected. Regarding the flaps there is such an attempt to show how much drag it produces.

The final thing that people neglect is the departure behavior of the planes. P47 turns tighter circles than the 51 (no flaps, leave the flap-fest AH has become out of this) only in really low speeds. This is possible because the 47 is so much more stable than the 51. The more extreme example is the F4U. If your plane is unstable, the pilot will leave a larger margin of error and not get the full 100% of the performance. If you remember the old 109s model that started to swing close to the stall, or the Mosquito that used to throw itself into flat spin without warning, or the F6F in old AHI (~2002) that so few flew due to the nasty sudden stall, you will understand. They had the potential, but using it was risky. Where HTC might be off is in the departure behavior of the models that allow us to reach unrealistic conditions - and these are the ones we compare to the data.
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Offline Urchin

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Re: P51 wing loading
« Reply #87 on: January 29, 2009, 06:14:58 AM »
I'm not an aerospace engineer.  All I can do is look at the "truth" before - and it must have been the 'truth' because any naysayers were shouted down with cries of absolute fidelity BEFORE version 2.07, and compare it with the 'truth' after.  As even a simple mathematician like myself can see, the two are not the same.  This would leave one to believe that somehow, in some way, the 'truth' is wrong, or was.  Since that is obviously impossible given the absolute fidelity of the modelling, and wonder what must have changed with me or my computer. 

Sarcasm aside - all I can do is look at the performance of the planes before and after, and ask WHY there were such drastic changes in performance (I seem to recall Widewing comparing the turning circle of the 190s before and after - and the after circle was 20% larger).  To me, drastic changes in the flight model with no explanation of why is ... unacceptable. 

Offline bongaroo

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Re: P51 wing loading
« Reply #88 on: January 29, 2009, 08:25:42 AM »
To me, drastic changes in the flight model with no explanation of why is ... unacceptable. 

Have you taken the time to give HTC a call or email asking about it? 
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Offline Steve

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Re: P51 wing loading
« Reply #89 on: January 29, 2009, 10:30:03 AM »
1. sure the D11 outturns the B pony, but only marginally. all the later models are outturned by both ponies, by a decent margin.

edit:


Wrong ang wrong. With flaps, the D stang is the worst turner of the bunch.
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