CV Suicide

[lazs1]

agree.
lazs

[StSanta]

Make cv's killable by 50 kg eggs. Only 1 needed

[ 12-24-2001: Message edited by: StSanta ]

[oboe]

Great thinking, Math and Tac.  I hope something is done.

Would it be possible too, to have the burning ground target graphics on the ships?   I don't think I've ever seen a fire on these ships after hits.   That might serve as a visual clue to suspended flight ops...

[Hortlund]

These are really great ideas.

I think the repairs should take more time though.

[Revvin]

Yes good idea provided the repair time is substantial for 2k of ord scoring a direct hit. I think the CV is modelled as it is because 2K would certainly halt operations and force it into dock so the CV dieing as a result of 2K kind of simulates that out of action. Perhaps a few friendly ports can be added to the map, ports that CV's don't lauch from but can return to get repaired instead of trekking back across the map for repair. This way the CV does not get lost after 2K, attackersstill have the chance of sinking it while it makes for the nearest friendly port and also another strategic element is added because countries can now attack these ports to stop them being able to repair CV's.

[Mathman]

Revvin,

I understand what you are saying, but CV's, particularly those in WW2 often did not need to return to port to resume flight operations.  Most of the Essex-class CV's that were damaged from bombs and/or kamikazes were able to resume flight operations relatively quickly without the need to return to port.  In fact, only the Franklin and Bunker Hill (I think it was the Bunker Hill) were the only two Essex's that had to return to port after taking severe damage.

I am not asking that the CV's be made invulnerable, just that there is a level of damage that can be repaired after a given amount of time to closer simulate what really happened to them in the war.

Your idea of having them return to port to repair damage is not a bad one.  However, I think that there should be a level of damage required before they need to return to port for repair.   2K should only close flight operations for a brief amount of time (15-20 minutes) unless hit by more bombs.

-math

[Revvin]

2k of ord would do a hell of alot of damage especially when from above on the lesser armoured decks away from the belt armour aroudn the hull, granted maybe not enough to have it sail to port but I think even considering AH game time (ie not really reflective of real time) 15-20 mins is a little unrealistic. I see alot of talk here about suicide attacks but many of them are anything but..its just CV's are so hard to get near, to only have them inoperable for 15-20 mins is not a fair reflection of the effort to get bombs anywhere near them or for that matter to even get torpedo's near the fleet with the laser range finding ack which is not realistic at all. The Bismark had supposedly the best defensive capabilities of anything at the time and was escorted by the Prince Eugen and yet nine Fairey Swordfish bi-planes got in range, dropped their ord and flew away without loss and these were slow underpowered cumbersome bi-planes that were only there because the British had nothing better at that time.

I agree a CV should take a lot more damage, perhaps 2k for 25-30 mins to reflect the ammount of time needed just to clear the decks let alone fix them and maybe have a little more ord required to force them to dock at a local ports dotted around the map.

[Mathman]

Yes, 2k will do serious damage.  The 15-20 minutes was used as an example.  One that, IMO, is a reasonable one considering the amount of time that bases are rendered unusable.  

Many people have pointed out that the flight decks are not armored and, thus, should be easier to destroy.  What they are ignoring, either intentionally or not, is that the reverse is also true.  Because the decks were made of wood, they were easily patched.  As I have mentioned before, only TWO Essex carriers were damaged beyond what could be fixed at sea.  If you would like, I will post pictures of the many carriers that were damaged and how long they were put out of action.  I think you may be surprised at how quickly they were.  I know I was.

Just as an example, the Yorktown was hit by dive bombers at Midway.  I believe it was three direct hits and a few near misses that damaged the watertight integrity of the hull.  There was extensive damage to the ship.  Within an hour, maybe two, it was able to conduct air ops.  In fact, the Japanese torpedo bombers that attacked it thought that they had attacked a second carrier because, to them, it appeared to be completely undamaged.  This was in 1942 and an earlier class of CV that did not incorporate the damage control capabilities of the later Essex class.
 
We are not asking that the CV's be made invulnerable.  We are asking that a scaled damage model be put in place for them, one that reflects what happened in real life.  If this is not what is wanted by the majority of players, fine, I think everyone here can live with it.  We have for over a year since the carriers were put in place.

I feel that what Tac has put forth as an exa mple of what would be a good damage model is a very good starting place.  Is it perfect?  No, but it is much more realistic and better for what we have in the MA than what is in place now.

-math

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Revvin:
The Bismark had supposedly the best defensive capabilities of anything at the time and was escorted by the Prince Eugen and yet nine Fairey Swordfish bi-planes got in range, dropped their ord and flew away without loss and these were slow underpowered cumbersome bi-planes that were only there because the British had nothing better at that time.

Bismarck was alone when the Swordfish attacked. Prinz Eugen and Bismarck split up after Hood was sunk to confuse the brittish navy in pursuit. 15 Swordfish attacked her, and two torpedoes hit. No swordfish was shot down, but all of them was hit and sustained damage. Had the aircraft been made of wood or metal, some or all would have been lost.

[Nordman]

Great ideas Math and Tac. I love'em. But I hope, if they make this idea come to life, that it won't be easy to "deack" fleet. Specially with small bombs. IMO it will have to need some serious bomber skill to hit fleet guns/acks from a ceratin amount of altitude. I mean, it IS a moving target.. Again I lay my faith iin HTC and believe they will do a great job here as they have done everywhere regarding this game  )

-XroverX

[Bluedog]

Excellant ideas.
The ports that could repair fleets, but not spawn them, could perhaps be float plane bases, if such a thing is possible ( I am guessing it would be, given the fact that LVTs can float and move on land, why not something that can float and fly? ).
Use Catalinas, Emillies(<? that big beautiful Japanese flying boat anyway) etc for fleet resupply, in a manner similar to how a C47 or M3 does it on land, but instead of dropping, you must land within fleet 'boundaries'( or on the CV itself if they were made truly amphibious) to release a 'fleet repair/supply package'. Maybe even give the float planes some sort of ASV short range radar, giving them the additional role of enemy fleet finder/scout.
Admittedly, any plane that can float would be a sitting duck in the MA environment, but they sure would be interesting.  
<S> Blue

[SirLoin]

You are right on the numbers with that suggestion TAC..