Author Topic: Pulling lead  (Read 5212 times)

Offline Yenny

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Re: Pulling lead
« Reply #60 on: January 30, 2009, 07:27:32 AM »

Yenny's General Stats for Late War Tour 107
Total Sorties: 55
Total Sortie Time: 05:46:58
Sortie Type         End Sortie Type
Fighter    3         Landed    5
Attack    52         Discos    1
Bomber    0         Bails    12
VehicleBoat    0         Ditches    3
FieldGunner    0         Captured    7

  Deaths    27



when I used to play a lot it looks something like this.

Score      Rank 
Kills per Death + 1    7.92    41
Kills per Sortie    3.72    21
Kills per Hour of Flight    11.88    70
Kills Hit Percentage    13.97    61
Kill Points    99651.38    6

    Fighter     
Kills    934    0    
Assists    213    
Sorties    251    
 Landed    119    
 Bailed    8    
 Ditched    13    
 Captured    42    
 Deaths    65    
 Discos    4    
Time hh:mm:ss    78:34:42    
Rank    2    

But since I'm gettin ready to deploy i'm forced to cancel my account=/. I'll be back some day though !
E .· ` ' / ·. F
Your tears fuel me.
Noobing since tour 96
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Offline The Fugitive

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Re: Pulling lead
« Reply #61 on: January 30, 2009, 08:01:44 AM »
When you know where the target is and where it's going, you don't need to see it under your nose to hit it.

What he needs to do is just practice self control. Don't fire the trigger until you're close. Until you're SURE you can't miss. Don't spray, and if you feel even a hint of praying (any uncertainty means you're not 100% sure of your shot) then just DON'T FIRE THE GUNS! Keep fighting, manuvering, positioning until you KNOW you've got a kill shot.

Try flying a plane with crappy ammo loads. All those RTBs with no kills under your belt will reinforce your self-training, and when you finally land any kills you can know you held your fire until you had a GOOD shot. This is very much in agreement with Ghosth's comments.


I know where the guy is going to be, I know he's under my nose at 200 out, I know we are in a 2 G turn, I know I have to unload the Gs and take my shot burst, but the "when".... too soon, too late, rarely on time.

Being 100% sure it's the time to shoot, almost never. My confidence in my aim is about nil these days. I have a film of a recent fight....fight LOL well after the LA blew his first couple of passes he decided I wasn't the easy target he wanted so the chase was on :) First couple of shots are in the 100-400 range, both crossing shots both missed because I was late. Next cross I get hit he's streaming white smoke and really ready to run now. I'm in a ponyB so I chase him, for over two minutes at ranges of 400-200. I shoot burst after burst, most going over him, some hitting, finally get a wing tip, he continues on, finally take his tail off and he goes down. "PatriotB" a teammate that was trying to get in position through most of the fight jokingly ask if I have any ammo left  :cry  Hes right, took more than half my load for one stinking LA !

I jokingly add in the film that I can pretty much out fly anybody, I just can"t hit them ! I then catch Dred at the top of a rope about 500 out with a singe burst that takes his tail off  :rolleyes: Some day I'll get it all together.

Offline Zazen13

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Re: Pulling lead
« Reply #62 on: January 30, 2009, 11:22:34 AM »
I've been noticing a lot more rudder use these days. It's quite hard to predict lead for a blind nose low-deflection shot if the bandit is throwing in some timely rudder yaw. This is the biggest reason I stick with planes with great nose-low deflection views. Using planes with good nose-low deflection views is generally good practice for improving your aim via visual feedback re-enforcement, which is also another reason to leave tracers on while learning, it builds your mind's visual, mental shot library much more quickly. Another suggestion is to choose a particular type of weapons package system and stick with it forever or at least until your aiming confidence is extremely high. For example...

1) Nose/Cowl or Wing Guns
2) Mixed Ballistics, cannon and mg. or Single type.
3) Slow RoF weapons or high RoF weapons.

Keeping all of that the same, one way or another with whichever plane(s) you choose, helps a lot. I've found if you switch that stuff up all the time it really messes up your brain's aiming computer. This is especially true of the wing guns vs. nose/cowl gun systems as with nose/cowl guns you only have to compensate for G's and angle of attack not convergence.

« Last Edit: January 30, 2009, 11:33:59 AM by Zazen13 »
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Offline mtnman

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Re: Pulling lead
« Reply #63 on: January 30, 2009, 11:45:49 AM »
When you know where the target is and where it's going, you don't need to see it under your nose to hit it.

What he needs to do is just practice self control. Don't fire the trigger until you're close. Until you're SURE you can't miss. Don't spray, and if you feel even a hint of praying (any uncertainty means you're not 100% sure of your shot) then just DON'T FIRE THE GUNS! Keep fighting, manuvering, positioning until you KNOW you've got a kill shot.

Try flying a plane with crappy ammo loads. All those RTBs with no kills under your belt will reinforce your self-training, and when you finally land any kills you can know you held your fire until you had a GOOD shot. This is very much in agreement with Ghosth's comments.


I agree with parts of this- and disagree with primarily the last part.

I agree completely with the "get close" aspect.  And I agree with picking your shots, and waiting until you're sure the shot is a good one (one you can hit).  And I agree with the "no spraying" aspect.

I personally hold my shots to D200.  Maybe D400 if I'm too slow, and the guy is pulling away, and I'm trying to scare him into turning.  Maybe D400 if I'm closing fast, and don't think I'm going to be at my "sweet" range of D200 long enough .  I may begin shooting at D400 on bombers too, since I know I can hit them, and want/need a bit of extra firing time.  D600 for me is simply to score a few pings and hopefully influence my opponent into a turn.  He's getting away, and I need him to turn so I can get closer and have a better profile for a shot.

As for picking your shots, waiting for a good one, I agree there too- mostly.  I would definately try to set up some nice, high-probability shots, then aim carefully, shoot carefully (in small bursts) and appraise the result.  Adjust aim a bit, and try again if needed (and it probably will be).  Paying attention to the shot situation, making a judgement on aim, and testing your hypothesis is really the only way to learn.  If you miss, try a small adjustment, and see if that helps.  If not, adjust again.

Spraying is bad for a few reasons at least.  One, it wastes ammo, and it also doesn't give you the crisp feedback of a small shot-stream.  With a long stream for your target to fly through you do have a better chance to score a few hits.  But you won't figure out the aiming, leads, etc nearly as precisely, since you won't know if you hit him with the beginning or ending rounds in that long stream.  In a long stream you're probably also varying your G-loading, which plays a huge factor in aim-point as well.

However- waiting for the perfect shot will get you killed, especially at first.  It'll cause you to miss opportunities that good shots could have been used effectively, and maybe that was your only good opportunity in that fight.  Waiting too long can make the fight last longer too, which gives you more time to screw up and/or get joined by other planes (maybe bad guys!)  So, I wouldn't wait for "perfect" set-ups, I'd wait for "good" set-ups, and, like in hunting, take the first "good" shot presented.  It may be the only shot presented.  Get killed a few times waiting for perfect shots, and I bet you'll get discouraged, lose patience, and start making some bad shot choices.  You won't learn to make the tough shots by not taking them.

The last idea is one I completely disagree with.  The crappy ammo load idea.  

Crappy ammo load planes present several obstacles to learning.  One, low ammo count, and two, generally poor ballistics with a weapon (probably some big cannon of one sort or another) that's tough to hit with.  Not only is it tough to hit with, it won't help you learn how to shoot the majority of the guns in the game, it'll teach you to shoot with that one oddball gun.  Another aspect, is that IMO it can lead to sloppy shooting, since all you need to do is get lucky and hit with one shell.  A lucky hit is too effective.  Random lobbing can be rewarded with a lucky hit, leading to success, leading to repeating the process...  You win that fight, but learn a bad habit.

The biggest detriment IMO to a low ammo load is the reduced amount of shooting possible.  I know the theory is that low ammo count will lead to a more concentrated effort to aiming.  It also leads to less practice.  Practice makes perfect.  Less practice makes less perfect.  No practice makes no perfect.  A .50 cal plane with a large ammo count will give you about 13-16 seconds of practice time per flight.  That's about the best you can do.  .50s are easy to hit with (positive reinforcement), but require a concentrated fire on a small area (spraying won't work so hot- neither will firing under high or differing G-loads).  They also shoot "flatter" making hitting easier at varying ranges, but again, require concentrated firing on a small area (limiting effectiveness to near convergence, which I recommend you set close, say 250-300)(I'm talking wing mounted guns).  Unless you hit the pilot, you won't get as many "golden BB's" with .50s as you do with cannons.  That's a good thing when learning, it''ll force you to concentrate.  And you'll have enough ammo to practice a bit.  The time to limit ammo is after the basics are learned- when you're trying to refine the behavior.  Not when you're learning the behavior.

Get close, take careful shots, practice a lot, and pay attention to where you miss and why, so you can correct it next time.  Look for your general trends- do you shoot too high quite often?  Not lead quite enough almost all the time?  And don't shoot at the enemy plane.  The easiest way to miss a deer is to shoot at it.  Aim for a specific point on that target.  I personally aim for the spot the windscreen meets the cowl if possible, and pick a different target if it's not (wingtip?).  If you're just shooting at his plane, you're not concentrating enough.  And any hit on that big area will serve as a "success".  If I aim at the cockpit, and hit the tail, I screwed up, and will mentally try to correct for that next time.  Sure, I may have won with that tail shot, but it was luck, not aim...  If I aim at the cockpit, and hit it, I get a big explosion (positive reinforcement).  If I miss it, but hit the engine, wings, fuselage, tail, it registers in my mind as an "Oops, better fix that!", but also teaches me where I screwed up (not enough lead?) so I can adjust (visual feedback, which my tracers will give me if I really mess up).

Lots of reading, sorry.  Skip it if you want...
« Last Edit: January 30, 2009, 11:50:34 AM by mtnman »
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Offline Krusty

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Re: Pulling lead
« Reply #64 on: February 01, 2009, 06:05:16 PM »
I think 50cal planes have way too much ammo. Especially navy planes and p47s. You fall into the pattern of telling yourself "okay, just one more attempt, rats, missed, wait, one more try, damn, missed!" and you get too fixated on some minute aspect that you get blinders.

I would say THE plane that helped me hone my aiming skills was the 109F-4. I'd be lucky if I could get 2 kills with 200 rounds of 20mm nose cannon. Once I got to 4 kills per single-ammo-load I knew that I was improving simply by the end results.

Other low-ammo, but normally-armed planes (i.e. no taters or anything) would include the spit5, the 109s with only 1x20mm nose gun, US planes with low ammo counts (F4F, FM2, P40E, and I suppose the P51D), and a few others. Planes that make you feel it when you totally miss. It's a given you'll get reinforcement when you hit, but the idea was to have a rap on the knuckles when you miss. The rap would be having to RTB empty.

Offline Bronk

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Re: Pulling lead
« Reply #65 on: February 01, 2009, 06:14:02 PM »
I think 50cal planes have way too much ammo. Especially navy planes and p47s. You fall into the pattern of telling yourself "okay, just one more attempt, rats, missed, wait, one more try, damn, missed!" and you get too fixated on some minute aspect that you get blinders.

I would say THE plane that helped me hone my aiming skills was the 109F-4. I'd be lucky if I could get 2 kills with 200 rounds of 20mm nose cannon. Once I got to 4 kills per single-ammo-load I knew that I was improving simply by the end results.

Other low-ammo, but normally-armed planes (i.e. no taters or anything) would include the spit5, the 109s with only 1x20mm nose gun, US planes with low ammo counts (F4F, FM2, P40E, and I suppose the P51D), and a few others. Planes that make you feel it when you totally miss. It's a given you'll get reinforcement when you hit, but the idea was to have a rap on the knuckles when you miss. The rap would be having to RTB empty.

Fm2 has a silly firing time something like 400+ rounds per gun.  Yak-u is good for honing skills. 
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Offline mtnman

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Re: Pulling lead
« Reply #66 on: February 01, 2009, 08:52:47 PM »
I would say THE plane that helped me hone my aiming skills was the 109F-4. I'd be lucky if I could get 2 kills with 200 rounds of 20mm nose cannon. Once I got to 4 kills per single-ammo-load I knew that I was improving simply by the end results.

This same scenario plays out regardless of ammo load in any plane.  For example, to tailor it to my situation I could say there was a point were I could only get 2 kills with the ammo in my F4U, but now find it to be enough for over a dozen kills. 

Too much ammo?  I think you're confusing "too much ammo" with "less dedicated/concentrated or lower quality practice".  Having more ammo in no way means you can't practice seriously with it.  Sloppy practice won't yield good results, but neither will good practice if it's too limited.  A lot of high quality practice is the best of both worlds.

Do you prescribe to a "less practice will make you better" notion?  Or a "less practice will force you to get better" notion?  Do you know of other skills where this pans out?  Is there a situation where no (or very little) practice could make you an expert?

I do understand the point you're trying to convey though.  I like to think that all my shooting with a single-shot muzzleloader has helped me a lot, where a multi-round clip might have hindered me.  It's more of a trial to fire a gun that takes 30 seconds to reload, than to run through a clip of .22 shells.  In actual fact though, it took a lot of practice to get better.  Round after round after round.  And I wasn't exclusively shooting a single-shot.  I've thrown thousands of rounds downrange, and they've all contributed to the skills I now possess.  Had I limited myself to the single-shot it would have taken me longer to learn, simply due to a slower gain in experience.  Running through clip after clip of .22 rounds taught me much that enables me to be more effective when I'm holding my muzzleloader.  Firing 100 (or more) rounds in windy conditions teaches me more than firing 10 rounds in the same conditions.

Taken to the extreme- how much better would you be today, had your plane been limited to 10 rounds?  Or one round?  Imagine how much you'd be forced to concentrate.  Imagine how much of a rap on the knuckles a miss would be then!  Maybe the 200 round clip hindered you more than it helped?

For that matter, maybe limiting military shooters to single shot weapons with limited ammo would improve their abilities?  Maybe rapid loading/firing weapons are leading to the demsie of the worlds military skills?
« Last Edit: February 01, 2009, 08:58:57 PM by mtnman »
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Offline Murdr

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Re: Pulling lead
« Reply #67 on: February 01, 2009, 11:59:42 PM »
Just my thoughts on the discussion...
I would not completely discount, or blanket perscribe either the weak ammo load, the no tracers, or the LCG.  It depends on what aspect needs worked on, and what the shooters knowledge base is. 

Most gunnery problems are a lack of lead, which means they are shooting at the wrong sight picture.  The LCG shows you what the sight picture should be for a variety of scenarios.  It shows all levels of players how they need to be correcting their sight picture.

No tracers is an option for a player who has been around long enough to know what to expect from AH's various gun ballistics.  It forces the shooter to look for the correct sight picture rather than walking their way into the correct picture with the tracers.

Weak ammo load forces the shooter to be more picky about the quality of sight picture they should be looking for.  That can be helpful if that is really what the shooters problem is, but it's also completely inappropriate for newer players who have a host of other flight issues to be working on.

What a newer player needs is pleanty of firing time to develop what I've taken to calling "a mental library of sucessful sight pictures".  So that means something with a durable ammo load, and preferably something maneuverable and E forgiving to put them in a position to use their guns.