Author Topic: He219 / Me410  (Read 12985 times)

Offline moot

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He219 / Me410
« on: February 01, 2009, 01:13:16 AM »
The question is which of these two would fare better in the MAs? Is one of the two more interesting from a historical perspective?  The 219 seems to have been produced in pretty small numbers.. Four times less than the 410: 300 vs 1200. So historicaly, the 410 would be a more valuable addition, unless it played more roles absent in AH than the 410 did.
M00T...the only major change to the 410 was more horse power.  Minor changes were made to the airframe.

As I said...110 Production was canceled.....but was reinstated due to the poor performance of the 210 and 410.

Now.....if that isn't proof the LW didn't like them...I don't know what is.  ;)

Willy was almost forced to resign his post because of the debacle.

The problem with the LW was they tried to make all their aircraft a jack of all trades. They were succesful in a very few.

Again...if you want a LW twin engined fighter ask for the He 219....it was a succesful fighter.

The 219 was more heavily armed then the 410, it was faster, and more maneuverable from all accounts.

It was a Mossie on steroids.
The 110 being put back in prod might just be politics.  Maybe half of all I've heard and read about the LW is full of crappy politics.. Everything from hair splitting luftwaffle squibbles to full blown BS like Hitler's insistence on the 262 being a bomber. Apparently the 219 had such a purse fight around it too (someone called Milch and the guy apparently in charge of the 219). So I take it with a grain of salt, as well as anecdotic qualifiers like the 110's expected (before we got it) flaky flight characteristics. The rest is all from wikipedia, don't really have time to dig thru a lot:

Both planes use the DB603. The 410 the 603A, and the 219 the E.  The E has marginaly better output, and is rated to 7km instead of the A's 5.7km.  Does this make much difference in the power/altitude curve?  Because otherwise the two planes are very similar: both have a ~30kft ceiling, and both have a top speed in the mid-high 380s.  And the 410 is a lot lighter than the 219, while both have the same engines! :)
What about maneuverability?  Both have anecdotic bad marks, the 219 was "underpowered and had low maneuverability", and the 410 was "merely" an improved 210 which was infamously quirky.  Is it possible to set the two apart? The 219 is nearly twice as heavy as the 410, empty. If we use the wing loading rough rule of thumb (on empty weights, to bias this for pure dogfighting potential), we see that the 410 is much lighter on its wings than the 219, despite the 219's much larger wing area (390ft2 vs 478ft2): 51.4lbs/ft2 to the 410's 33lbs/ft2.

Flaps would play an important part, if they differed, but it looks like both use plain flaps. Maybe one of the two has larger flaps relative to the total wing area?  The elevator and hstab areas, and aileron areas could be compared too.


Those aren't slotted flaps, are they?

This shot's from a game, so one more grain of salt there..

The cockpit in both planes look very good.  The 219 has barely any nose ahead of the windscreen:

Visibility would be great, with its bubble canopy and wings further back than the 410's. The 410 has a similarly stubby nose ahead of the pilot, but also has glass sections right down the middle of the cockpit's forward part (click for bigger):


So while you wouldn't have the 219's visibility on angles below and behind the cockpit, the 410 allows you the less accessory benefit of a glass cockpit for lead shots, provided you're in plane with the target's trajectory.

As far as guns are concerned, the 410 is slightly better.  They both had provisions for the MK103, but the 410 had a pair of them standard whereas the 219 "seldom" had them fitted for weight concerns. The 219 could carry Schrage muzic 30mm's, though, and players of AH would easily exploit these as well as the equally effective MK103s' range and lethality, by e.g. making passes at bombers with the SM equipped He219 on indirect trajectories while the guns would be pointed on target.. Might take some practice, but it would definitely be bad news for bombers. The 219 would never have to be pointed directly at the incoming fire.
The 410 has rear guns but that's probably negligible.  While the 219 had (apparently, the couple of articles I had time to find weren't consistent) as many as 4 fwd-firing MK108s + some 20mm's.. That's impressive, but the 103s were omitted most of the time (not promising for their inclusion in AH's He219), and there weren't as many different packages as the 410: 6x 20mm, or (guaranteed) MK103s in the nose, and possibly a BK5 50mm.  I think it's pretty much neck and neck between the two planes.

I see three decisive points between these two:  First, the complete unknown of maneuvering character (flaps, departure, spins, verticals..) You can't read that off specification charts.  Second, any difference in the speed/altitude curves might make or break their proficiency in the game. As it is, the figures I see are nearly identical.  And third..  I forgot the third one.
Both planes are beautiful.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2009, 01:39:35 AM by moot »
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Offline Karnak

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Re: He219 / Me410
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2009, 01:45:14 AM »
I'd love to see the Me410 added to AH.

The He219 is an over rated piece of junk that Heinkel claimed would do 420mph, but it never broke 400mph level in Luftwaffe service.
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Offline oakranger

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Re: He219 / Me410
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2009, 02:51:45 AM »
Wasnt the HE219 and night intercepter?
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Offline DarkglamJG52

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Re: He219 / Me410
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2009, 07:26:00 AM »
Wasnt the HE219 and night intercepter?

Yes. In the first night fight Werner Streib shotdown 5 bristish bombers, but  crash land because    
electronic flaps problems.

Amazing plane, but a bit useless for AH.

Offline 33Vortex

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Re: He219 / Me410
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2009, 08:30:37 AM »
The 410 would make a more interesting option in AH. The 219 was specifically made for night intercepts so in AH, where we don't have nights or on-board radar, it is somewhat useless. Historically it was a great bomber interceptor though. Industrially and politically challenged because of the corrupt and power hungry nazi leaders, it did not see as much use as it should have. The 410 was a fairly well improved design over the 110 and quite advanced. Of course I've never flown one, but what I've read suggests that most of the bad handling of the 110 was straightened out with the new wing. Not sure how or even if those rear gun barbettes would be implemented in AH though. If they make them like the Ar232s barbettes they'd be near useless.

So, in short, my vote is on the Me410 Hornisse (Hornet).

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Offline Xasthur

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Re: He219 / Me410
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2009, 07:56:45 PM »
The 219 was specifically made for night intercepts so in AH, where we don't have nights or on-board radar, it is somewhat useless.

It wouldn't be useless if it was faster and more maneuverable than the Me 410.

That would make the 219 more fun in Aces High.

I voted for the 410, it looks like fun, but if the He 219 is going to be a more capable fighter/attack platform as far as Aces High goes.... well, that's where my vote is going.

It looks like it's time for some comparative stats and figures.
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Offline Motherland

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Re: He219 / Me410
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2009, 08:02:35 PM »
The Me410 looks like it would be a dream to take lead shots in, and also that that heavy armament wouldn't be able to be used for HO-shots due to the lack of pilot protection from the front.


I like the Bf.110 in the first place, but sometimes I wish for something a bit faster for late war. It also wins over the 219 in the sexiness department (IMO it's the best looking twin engined fighter of the war). The Me410 would be a dream come true...

Offline 33Vortex

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Re: He219 / Me410
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2009, 08:56:00 PM »
The Me410 would be a dream come true...

Yeah... but so would the Ju87G, Hs129, He177, He111, Do217, Ju288/388, Me323 and He115 be... as well as any type of German tank.   :rock

I'm easy to please... just add more German hardware. :)

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Offline 1pLUs44

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Re: He219 / Me410
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2009, 09:03:57 PM »
I'm honestly skeptical about the 219 outturning the 410.

Just by seeing how huge it is :O
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Offline BnZs

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Re: He219 / Me410
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2009, 09:50:59 PM »
I'm honestly skeptical about the 219 outturning the 410.

Just by seeing how huge it is :O

And thus it is demonstrated that the F4U cannot possibly out-turn the La7  :D
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Offline texastc316

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Re: He219 / Me410
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2009, 10:14:31 PM »
is that a CH stick?
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Offline moot

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Re: He219 / Me410
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2009, 01:00:13 AM »
The Me410 looks like it would be a dream to take lead shots in, and also that that heavy armament wouldn't be able to be used for HO-shots due to the lack of pilot protection from the front.


I like the Bf.110 in the first place, but sometimes I wish for something a bit faster for late war. It also wins over the 219 in the sexiness department (IMO it's the best looking twin engined fighter of the war). The Me410 would be a dream come true...
Not to exagerate here, but the MK103s would allow you to take the shot and evade before the other plane's (most likely) weak guns could lock on to you. It seems like the same sort of tradeoff that some of us take with less maneuverable but faster and better armed planes.  That's on the assumption that those two planes of glass are as weak as that.  I don't really expect that they will resist a hispano, but 303s may just bounce off.  Isn't it the 190A8 that had armored front glass that just shrugged off 50's from US bombers?

The speeds are interesting: the 219 weighs nearly twice the 410, and yet the speeds are similar. I reckon the 219 might simply have been cleaner for top speed, but would be a real handful below that. I expect it wouldn't have such thrust as the 410. It wouldn't really be the better choice for all out air combat unless it behaved like the 152 compared to the 190s: heavy and relatively underpowered, but with a lot of wing area so that it's very maneuverable if you handle it just right.
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Offline 33Vortex

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Re: He219 / Me410
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2009, 01:45:59 AM »
190A-8 with the additional armor plates was specifically made to take .50s and keep flying.


Not really the best image, but you see the additional heavy glass plating on the sides... Protecting the pilot was the priority. When attacking the big mass of the engine usually protected the pilot fairly well but as soon as the attacker broke off the pilot immediately became exposed. Hence the additional side plating.


On this model you can see the additional heavy glass frames and side armor plating.

I don't have to tell you the impact on performance this additional weight had, but at least the pilot had considerably better chance to survive a close encounter with a formation of buffs.


Note how the cannons were armored so that they wouldn't get knocked out so easily. This is how the 190s could assault a formation of bombers from behind, and they never did it alone there was always a pack of them going in at the same time.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2009, 01:53:14 AM by 33Vortex »

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Offline BigPlay

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Re: He219 / Me410
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2009, 03:00:25 PM »
I'd love to see the Me410 added to AH.

The He219 is an over rated piece of junk that Heinkel claimed would do 420mph, but it never broke 400mph level in Luftwaffe service.

really...... Werner Streib thought it was a fine aircraft. In 10 days 3 prototypes shot down 20 British bombers and 6 Mossies. Big deal it couldn't fly over 400 mph. It was a night fighter. It did what it was designed for.

Offline Karnak

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Re: He219 / Me410
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2009, 03:03:58 PM »
really...... Werner Streib thought it was a fine aircraft. In 10 days 3 prototypes shot down 20 British bombers and 6 Mossies. Big deal it couldn't fly over 400 mph. It was a night fighter. It did what it was designed for.
Most people who request it think it did 420mph.  The He219 was manhandled by Mosquito night-fighters.
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