He219 / Me410

[Charge]

"No Bomber Command Mosquitoes were lost in June, 1943, thus it isn't on the list."

Erm, it would be decent to put a zero for that month then, otherwise it indicates that the data is simply missing...

"Well since the Mossie isnt that manuverable I would think 110 night fighters would be able to out turn the Mossies."

According to one German nightfighter pilot that was not the case. In his opinion the NF 110G was severely hampered by the NF equipment and was badly outperformed by the NF Mossie.

-C+

PS. If you guys have valid reliable data available why don't you put it in Wiki but instead always whine how unreliable it is as an information source?

[FLOTSOM]

Great research Scherf   

[Scherf]

No worries. Got the Combat Reports for the Mosquito and the Mustangs in the Denmark He 219 encounter around here somewhere, let me see if I can put up a link.

[Scherf]

Try this:

http://www.users.bigpond.com/MSN/mhuxtable/crs.zip

[Karnak]

Try this:

http://www.users.bigpond.com/MSN/mhuxtable/crs.zip

Thanks for posting those.  They were interesting to read.

[BigPlay]

I am not talking about theories on what may or may not have happened.  I am telling you a tactic that was used successfully.  I think you grossly overestimate the capabilities of all WWII radar.  The Mosquito is question isn't relying on Monica to find the German, it is using it as a lure to bring the German to it.

I am not going to discuss this with you if you insist on holding fanboy images of how things were.

 Then don't because I know what I'm talking about......

 I have a business and have had for the last 15 years based on military history. I have met hundreds of WW2 veteran's at symposiums that I either attended or was part of organizing. I am long time friends with at least 15-20 aces from WW2, from Britian , Germany and the US and am on a first name basis with too many to name. I have had on many occasions  had long sit down conversations with them on everything you can think of, I know their family's and even had some of them selling their books at various air shows and other venues under my banner. I have hundreds of books form all aspects of WW2 history and have read all more then 3 times. This to me isn't just a business it was and is my hobby and interst through all of my life. I have probally one of the largest and rarest autograph collections pertaining to WW2 and really all aspects of aviation, naval and armor in the world. I have met many authors and have had long discussions with them about our love for WW2 history. I'm not saying I am the end all to military history but I can tell you that my nose is in a book regarding WW2 year round. I have read many books on many topics and I have come to realize one thing and that there is no one book that is all encompassing on any subject. So making reference to a book you may have read means little to me because I have read 20 to 30 books on one subject and have come to realize that you have to discern what's correct or what isn't based on what you have learned on your own. I have heard stories from many pilots that I have yet to even read about in any book, stories that debunk many myths and many that back them up. I am very good friends with Johnnie Johnsons son and have heard countless stories and thoughts about him from when he was flying. He has personally told me that some books that contain material written about his dad is bogus and that it never happened. I am not denying that Mossie crews had their tactics on defeating German night fighters but this was such a small and relatively isolated occurrence that it really had no bearing on the overall outcome of the German night fighter force. Yes the Mosquito was an awesome plane but the light your shinning on it makes it sound like it stopped the Germans cold. If it did then there wouldn't  be the likes of guys like Snauffer, Zoerner, Hoffman, Streib, Drewes, Jabs and on and on. The simple fact is that British night fighters did very little to deter the German night fighting operations.

[thrila]

I have managed to scan the images from 'Fighter Command Losses of the Wecond World War' by Norman Franks.

There were only 2 night fighter losses, on the 20/21 and 27/28 of July.  If the images are too large i'll resize them at a later date.

[Karnak]

 Then don't because I know what I'm talking about......

 I have a business and have had for the last 15 years based on military history. I have met hundreds of WW2 veteran's at symposiums that I either attended or was part of organizing. I am long time friends with at least 15-20 aces from WW2, from Britian , Germany and the US and am on a first name basis with too many to name. I have had on many occasions  had long sit down conversations with them on everything you can think of, I know their family's and even had some of them selling their books at various air shows and other venues under my banner. I have hundreds of books form all aspects of WW2 history and have read all more then 3 times. This to me isn't just a business it was and is my hobby and interst through all of my life. I have probally one of the largest and rarest autograph collections pertaining to WW2 and really all aspects of aviation, naval and armor in the world. I have met many authors and have had long discussions with them about our love for WW2 history. I'm not saying I am the end all to military history but I can tell you that my nose is in a book regarding WW2 year round. I have read many books on many topics and I have come to realize one thing and that there is no one book that is all encompassing on any subject. So making reference to a book you may have read means little to me because I have read 20 to 30 books on one subject and have come to realize that you have to discern what's correct or what isn't based on what you have learned on your own. I have heard stories from many pilots that I have yet to even read about in any book, stories that debunk many myths and many that back them up. I am very good friends with Johnnie Johnsons son and have heard countless stories and thoughts about him from when he was flying. He has personally told me that some books that contain material written about his dad is bogus and that it never happened. I am not denying that Mossie crews had their tactics on defeating German night fighters but this was such a small and relatively isolated occurrence that it really had no bearing on the overall outcome of the German night fighter force. Yes the Mosquito was an awesome plane but the light your shinning on it makes it sound like it stopped the Germans cold. If it did then there wouldn't  be the likes of guys like Snauffer, Zoerner, Hoffman, Streib, Drewes, Jabs and on and on. The simple fact is that British night fighters did very little to deter the German night fighting operations.

No, radar equipped Mosquitoes weren't even allowed to operated over German territory until late in the war, a decision that was nearly criminal.  Once it did it had a significant impact on German night-fighter operations.

Your comments about the Bf110 and turn radius are what triggered my perception of you as a fanboy.  Night-fighter combat was entirely about cat and mouse work and ambushes.

[BigPlay]

I have read that daytime fighter sweeps over known night fighter bases did more to the German night fighter wing then did any air to air conflict. I believe Hans Jabs was jumped during the daylight  on a ferry flight carring a side of bacon by Geffory Page and his squad resulting in not only Jabs 110 crash landing and losing his bacon but Jabs scoring 2 Spitfire kills before skidding in, in fact I believe it was at a reunion of sorts in England that Page overheard Jabs telling the story and Page stepped in to claim the kill. He sent Jabs a side of bacon that Christmas for the loss of his wartime booty.

[Karnak]

What the offensive night-fighter Mosquito operations did wasn't so much shoot down mass numbers of German night-fighters as add the fear of the hunted to them rather than just being the hunters.

[BigPlay]

What the offensive night-fighter Mosquito operations did wasn't so much shoot down mass numbers of German night-fighters as add the fear of the hunted to them rather than just being the hunters.

 Correct ....it was always in their minds but experienced night fighter crews went about their business as usual. You have to remember that these guys homes were getting bombed both day and night and their family's were being killed. I don't know about you but if my family was being put in harms way by these raids I would be like a pit bull in the skies. The same went for the ground pounders. When they saw what the Russians were doing to their captured women and children
on their advance into German territory they started fighting for them rather then themselves. At the battle of the Seelow Heights the Russians took unthinkable losses at the hands of the Germans because they knew they were the last defense  for the civilians behind them.

This whole thing started about the He219 and reference to it's bogus claims. I was just trying to shed a little light that in fact the plane did have some success. About the 6 Mossie kills being correct I don't know but it wasn't a stretch that in fact some Mossies could have been downed by He219's. Maybe, maybe not. The He219 could have become with further development a first class night fighter not just in my opinion but by pilots that flew the plane. Like I said I know many aces and they get upset by authors that put words or misquote them, that's why many write their own. Now if I read a book on Bud Anderson and then read another by someone else I would be inclined to believe Bud's words rather then some dweeb who says different. My responce was based on Werner Strieb's own words concerning the 219 and his thoughts on it. I apologize if I came across any different.

[Scherf]

Tha-rillllllllllll-laaaaaaaaaa:

If you've still got the book handy, can you check something for me? I'm trying to verify if HX852 of 264 Squadron was lost on 26/27 September, or 27/28 September.

Cheers,

Scherf

[thrila]

Yeppers, still have it- it was lost on an 27/28th sept on an intruder to Rheine.

[Boozeman]

Wow, and I thought this topic would be about the addition of the He219/Me410. 

[Scherf]

Yeppers, still have it- it was lost on an 27/28th sept on an intruder to Rheine.

Cheers mate.