Tuned vox & mega squads

[Cee64E]

First, let me say I'm not picking on you or your squad Cee64E, but I would like to use your situation as an example.

You say your not very good in a plane, but are trying, and thats cool, but in a mission your a small part of the whole. With a mega squad you are more comfortable because even tho you think your not very good your squad mates have your back and will cover for you. As a principle, thats cool, but from a training stand point its a crutch. You don't have to get better because someone else will cover it for you. You don't have the same motivation as someone in a smaller squad. They have less people, so to be able to handle the same missions they have to be that much better. This is what I see is the problem with the mega squads. Not that they aren't training, but that maybe most aren't learning, because so many people have there back.

When I was CO of a big squad I would figure out what I needed to take the base. I knew my squad was good for 70% hit rate with bombs. I would load the missions with those numbers and very few extras. If I didn't have enough people to hit two bases at once the surplus went on to the next base to prep it, not to over load the main attack. The point is we force each player to handle his load. They all knew we where counting on them to hit what was expected of them. Sure sometimes we missed, but when you hit dead on, there was a thrill of accomplishment. If it takes ten bricks to do the job, and you only bring 12 you better make as few mistakes as possible. You fight smarter, better, harder. Today, mega squads throw a whole wall of bricks at it. They don't care how many hit and it doesn't take a lot of skill. It doesn't force anyone to get better, it doesn't hold anyone accountable.

Respectfully...
The point is that many people who start out in a mega do get better.  I've flown flight sims since my name-sake was the leading edge of technology.  I can fly the frappin plane.  Learning to fight the plane is what I enjoy about this game.  Having a large squad means there are more potential teachers, more friends with tips and tricks.  This game has a fairly step learning curve.  The more teachers the better.
We have had members that joined with lesser skills, flew with us for a while to improve their skills, then moved on.  We have never asked someone to be cannon fodder the whole time I've been in the squad, and I can't imagine anyone being willing to do that anyway unless they're more used to playing WoW.  Of all the large squads we fly with, I can't think of a single one that uses such tactics.
Yes, it is a "safe" place for someone to start, there is safety in numbers.  That's not neccessarily a bad thing.  I like sharing what I've learned with people who are learning, and learning from those that are able to teach me.  In the small "clique" squads, they don't always want to teach someone, or have members that need to learn since that would drag the squad average down.  I think Mega-squads have their place.  The personal dynamics aren't the same as the little squads, they're more like what a fighting force would have been in a time of war.  In my opinion, that makes them better.

[Cee64E]

<S> Thought that was you. You could at least show the sequential destruction of your buffs.

If I knew how to get from the film viewer to a workable youtube vid, I would have.
BTW, if your last question was an invite to the DA, sure, why not. No better way to learn to beat someone than to fly against them.

[Bronk]

If I knew how to get from the film viewer to a workable youtube vid, I would have.
BTW, if your last question was an invite to the DA, sure, why not. No better way to learn to beat someone than to fly against them.

Fraps
I'm off AH for the night....wifes been on me about it as of late. I'll be on tomorrow and I'll look for you on.
Just a point of interest... did you notice no 200 smack after the shoot downs? I am not evil incarnate, I look forward to DA with you.  Possibly after that you could convince Dadsguns too try it also.

[bmwgs]

First lines are in reply to the post directly above mine. Reply to you starts with "Fred - "
No one in any of these threads (that I've noticed) said there's no interpersonal dynamics in larger squads.  That there are a few deviants from proven trends proves those are exceptions as there are to any rule, not that the trend isn't definitely there.

Dissent/"not gonna bother" - so you could argue, but don't, but have to mention you could but won't.

You don't call refuting arguing?  That there's disagreements on opinions is a given.. I mean that's the whole paradigm here. Throw a bunch of ideas in the mixer and see what comes out.  If you're not entitled to your opinions? What're you talking about?  It's not about entitlement or whether everyone has their opinions, it's about sorting out which one makes more sense.
I could fit in some quip about being entitled to coming off as nonsensical squeaking wheels but that's not the point of the argument; viz:We can bicker about Bronk being mean and cruel for poking fun at the absurd aspect of another thread, or we can get to the bottom of the disagreements.. Or we can go around in circles arguing about how we're not really arguing and questioning who's entitled to an opinion.  Or posting single instance screenshots "as proof" as though they weren't cherry picking.

I guess you mean that I replied wrong, something with the lines.  Not sure what you mean please elaborate.  This is not meant to be hostile, I am not a computer geek, and if I did something wrong, I want to make sure I don't do it again.   Thanks

Refuting: Haven't seen that word in a while.  Had to look it up to make sure I knew what it meant.    No refuting is not argueing its simply to be proven wrong by an argument.  Haven't seen that happen yet.  Some say game play is declining, but I don't see where it is.  So to me that argument has not been won.  I think the game is better than when I first started playing.  Maybe that is me, but I'm having a blast.  As I have stated in the past, at my age, my friends think I am nuts, and this is the first on line game I have ever played and I am having a great time.

As for sorting through the opinions, who does the sorting?  I will agree HiTech has the ultimate say, and since this is his house he will make the decisions, but it still does not mean that others have to share his opinions.  They may simply have to abide by them to continue to play the game.

As for Bronk being mean and cruel.  At least I don't share that opinion.  I actually like his posts.  I enjoy going back and forth with him.  Me personally, I have nothing against him, but we all know why he started this thread.  

I agree about getting to the bottom of the disagreement.  Some believe that the larger squads are determental to game play, and others disagree.  I don't know who is right, but until I see some real proof and not just opinions, I will not be refuted.  I hope I used that word right.  

I guess I need to make something clear.  I am a member of the Rolling Thunder and proud to be so.  I have no idea why Falcon23 has not booted me, because I rarely fly with the squad.  I usually am off doing my own thing, but I like the interaction I have with my squaddies on vox.  Even though I am off doing other things I still communicate with them and have a great time.  I do at times join the squad operations, but really they are few and far between.  I plan to stay a member until Falcon boots me.  Maybe I am a unique situation, but maybe you will understand where I am obtaining my opinions from, and I don't mean just from the squad.

 

Fred

[moot]

The personal dynamics aren't the same as the little squads, they're more like what a fighting force would have been in a time of war.

see here:

71 Squadron RAF would have been 12 planes operational with probably 18-20 planes total to keep 12 planes flying.  An RAF squadron generally flew 3 flights of 4, with a Wing being 2 or three seperate squadrons.

The Tangmere Wing in the Fall of 1943 for example was 41 and 91 squadrons flying Spit XIIs.  24 kites up, 12 per squadron.

Even if you had a "Wing" it would be 36 planes max, made up of 3 squadrons, such as 71, 121 and 133  aka the Eagle Squadrons.

A USAAF Fighter Group would be the same.  3 Squadrons such as 334, 335 and 336 that made up the 4th FG

Fred- So you said your piece, that wasnt so hard was it?   I'll reply in a bit.

[Dadsguns]

Fraps
I'm off AH for the night....wifes been on me about it as of late. I'll be on tomorrow and I'll look for you on.
Just a point of interest... did you notice no 200 smack after the shoot downs? I am not evil incarnate, I look forward to DA with you.  Possibly after that you could convince Dadsguns too try it also.

Not until you take me up on my offer, quid pro quo. 

[bmwgs]

see here:
Fred- So you said your piece, that wasnt so hard was it?   I'll reply in a bit.

   Saying my piece has never been a problem for me.  Did I do it right this time?  I just got lazy the last time.  I have seen others do it that way, but if it not the proper way, then I'll stick by the old fashion way.

Fred

[stroker71]

I think at some point we are going to have to agree to disagree.  There is 2 sides of the fence and I don't think either side is going to budge.  HTC will have to sort this out. Do what they think is best for the players and the future of the game.  I like my little squad of 4...3 of us are 2 years plus playing the game.  We took on one new guy and are working with him.  Once he is up to speed (he's young but willing to learn) we will get another and do it again.  We will never have more than 32 in the squad but at this pace it will be some time before we get to that.    to all been fun but no one is going to win the fight.  We will know the outcome when HTC either does something or not.  I know that several of the "mega" squads have grown over the years and have trained people so I  you for that.  If your just a grabbing everyone body that shows up in the game I think that is bad.  They can develop the relationships over time but the training needs to be there.  We like the new person to fly with us for alittle bit to make sure it's a good fit for them and us.  But a lot of new people are wanting and willing to jump into any squad that will have them.  I believe the game suffers for that.  This will be my last post on this thread ...I am RTB ammo, fuel and missing parts! (the missing parts came from a noob that rammed me...lol)

[hitech]

WARNING WARNING WARNING: This post is off topic.

Facts and opinions are not the same thing.
The real facts of this case are.

In the history of man kind, every time a group has become larger and crossed a critical mass point, the social dynamics of that group changed.

This is a fact. It is NOT an opinion. It is a pet peeve of mine when people confuse the 2 items,and want to add to an argument the view point all opinions are equal.

Now an opinion or better stated a conclusion from the above fact would be. When ever a group becomes larger and crosses a critical mass point, the group dynamics WILL change. This is an opinion, one could state that they do not agree with this opinion. But most people would agree that to think something will be different when it never has in the past, is not considered sound logic.

Now a very technical statement would be the odds that when a group becomes larger it as some point changes its social dynamics is extremely high is a conclusion based on normally accepted mathematical principles.

My next OPINION "Mega bad for AH" is not a fact. And it is an opinion. This is not a simple conclusion and could be discussed and debated.

HiTech

[Murdr]

Those facts are??????????  I guess some of us are not smart enought to read and understand.

Fred

Hi bmwgs, what I meant was that, the written record and time stamps back up what I said.  Which is that this thread did not pop up out of the blue because Bronk wanted to stir the pot.  It was effectively a counter-wish brought on by the earlier discussion. 

I hope I made my opinion clear on this subject.  This was my first post in the other thread.

Yea, because there's a unit structure
A Flight is 4-6 aircraft
A Squadron is 3-4 Flights
A Group is 2-10 Squadrons
A Wing is 2+ Groups
An Air Force (eg. 8th Air Force) is 2+ wings


HTC says a squadron is 32 players (as opposed to USAAF 12-24 planes).  More that is a higher unit than "a squadron", period.

Just on established convention and terminology, "our squad has 3 wings" is flawed.  That is not opinion.  Hypothetically if I wanted to fill all of my squads slots, and then continue to add people to the organization, I'd add our units namesake's squadron designation on to the name of each squad.  The 479th was a fighter group made up of the 434th through 436st fighter squadron.  But that is me, and I am a bit of a history buff.  At one time, that was the vast majority of people you would find in this type of game.  To sum it up, I find the concept of "our 80 person squadron" as silly as, "my 80 ounce quart jug".

I have never called for the burning at the stake of all mega-squads.  But some have had periods of relatively selfish behavior in the grand scheme of gameplay, and I am not shy about shining a verbal light on it

[bmwgs]

WARNING WARNING WARNING: This post is off topic.

Facts and opinions are not the same thing.
The real facts of this case are.

In the history of man kind, every time a group has become larger and crossed a critical mass point, the social dynamics of that group changed.

This is a fact. It is NOT an opinion. It is a pet peeve of mine when people confuse the 2 items,and want to add to an argument the view point all opinions are equal.

Now an opinion or better stated a conclusion from the above fact would be. When ever a group becomes larger and crosses a critical mass point, the group dynamics WILL change. This is an opinion, one could state that they do not agree with this opinion. But most people would agree that to think something will be different when it never has in the past, is not considered sound logic.

Now a very technical statement would be the odds that when a group becomes larger it as some point changes its social dynamics is extremely high is a conclusion based on normally accepted mathematical principles.

My next OPINION "Mega bad for AH" is not a fact. And it is an opinion. This is not a simple conclusion and could be discussed and debated.

HiTech

Actually I agree with everthing you just said. 

I did not go back and reread my posts to see if I was unclear about the issue, but the topic of this thread was to limit vox.  I do not believe that I argued that the social dynamics in a larger squad was not different than a smaller squad, my position was I have seen no proof (facts) that support that larger squads are bad for game play, thus vox needs to be limited to prevent this.

Thanks,

Fred

[moot]

It can't work anyway, squads arent the only elements to use vox.  The real point if you read between the OP lines OTOH was about mega squads' negative influence on the game, I assumed as an invitation to discuss solutions to them.

[MachNix]

WARNING WARNING WARNING: This post is off topic.

Facts and opinions are not the same thing.
The real facts of this case are.

In the history of man kind, every time a group has become larger and crossed a critical mass point, the social dynamics of that group changed.

This is a fact. It is NOT an opinion. It is a pet peeve of mine when people confuse the 2 items,and want to add to an argument the view point all opinions are equal.

Now an opinion or better stated a conclusion from the above fact would be. When ever a group becomes larger and crosses a critical mass point, the group dynamics WILL change. This is an opinion, one could state that they do not agree with this opinion. But most people would agree that to think something will be different when it never has in the past, is not considered sound logic.

Now a very technical statement would be the odds that when a group becomes larger it as some point changes its social dynamics is extremely high is a conclusion based on normally accepted mathematical principles.

My next OPINION "Mega bad for AH" is not a fact. And it is an opinion. This is not a simple conclusion and could be discussed and debated.

HiTech

It may be Fact that social dynamics change with the group’s size but it is Opinion on whether that change is good or bad for the game.  Obviously the ones now on top are going to say the change is good and the ones that are now on the bottom are going to say the change is bad.

Now for you, HiTech, the metric you should be keeping an eye on is how many Two Week Trials gets converted to Subscriptions and how long those Subscriptions last.  When you say that the mega squads are bad for AH, I can only assume you see the numbers trending in a bad way and it is your opinion that the mega squads are the cause for those negative trends.

Well, let me tell you about the BoP mega squad.  We have had a couple of resent new hires that other Bops have talked into trying the game.  From inside the squad the new guys can ask questions without getting the standard Alt-F4 answer from others.  They get on-the-job training where they feel like they are making a contribution regardless of their skill level, and there is someone there to help them when they get in over their heads.  I imagine these things are true for all squads no mater their size.  But with a mega squad, it is more likely that someone from the squad will be on when you join who can give you a hand and tell you where the fight is so you can get right into the action.  Now I’m not a touch-feely kind of guy and treat my squadies like co-works so I know who they are but don’t know their favorite colors, but I do get a certain level of “comfort” knowing they are around even if we are not flying together.  It is because of the squad that I have kept my subscription going for as long as it has.  The squad has also been a strong motivator for my contribution of skins and maps.  So I would say the BoP mega squad, wing, or group has been good for AH.

But when I see the AH Staff insulting my skills and calling my squad’s CO a “dillweed,” it makes me stop and think why I should continue to send in my $14.95 a month to support a game where the founder appears to condone the open contempt for the community by his staff.  Now that is not fact or my opinion; that’s my perception.  And perception is reality.  Maybe me being a mercenary and only having co-works in a mega squad does not help as much in fighting against that perceived contempt as it would if I were in a smaller squad with friends; but I would say, as an opinion, that the lack of mutual respect displayed, here on the boards and in the game, by a handful of individuals has a greater impact on any negative trends you may see then does the mega squads.

MachNix

[Murdr]

But when I see the AH Staff insulting my skills and calling my squad’s CO a “dillweed,” it makes me stop and think why I should continue to send in my $14.95 a month to support a game where the founder appears to condone the open contempt for the community by his staff.  Now that is not fact or my opinion; that’s my perception.  And perception is reality.  Maybe me being a mercenary and only having co-works in a mega squad does not help as much in fighting against that perceived contempt as it would if I were in a smaller squad with friends; but I would say, as an opinion, that the lack of mutual respect displayed, here on the boards and in the game, by a handful of individuals has a greater impact on any negative trends you may see then does the mega squads.

MachNix

Neither you, your CO, or your squad are "the community" as a whole. 

One could even argue that your mega squad is actually a "bubble community" apart from the community at large.  After all there is an active thread called "Your favorite BBS contributor" where one of the most named "favorite contributors" is someone your CO never even heard of before the other thread.  I am saying that only to illustrate the point, as opposed to actually making that argument.

And then there is this whole vocal minority strawman.  Granted, birds of a feather and all that, but just because you choose to associate with like minded individuals, doesn't mean your social circle represents the community as a whole.

Following your logic, on how some form of affiliation allows no individuality, you may want to go back an review the other thread, and evaluate whether your CO was speaking for you with the habitual name calling of individuals, the trainers as a whole, and calling ACM gamey in an Air Combat Sim.  While you're at it, I'd also suggest pondering the word "mutual" in that context.



 

[bmwgs]

Neither you, your CO, or your squad are "the community" as a whole. 

One could even argue that your mega squad is actually a "bubble community" apart from the community at large.  After all there is an active thread called "Your favorite BBS contributor" where one of the most named "favorite contributors" is someone your CO never even heard of before the other thread.  I am saying that only to illustrate the point, as opposed to actually making that argument.

And then there is this whole vocal minority strawman.  Granted, birds of a feather and all that, but just because you choose to associate with like minded individuals, doesn't mean your social circle represents the community as a whole.

Following your logic, on how some form of affiliation allows no individuality, you may want to go back an review the other thread, and evaluate whether your CO was speaking for you with the habitual name calling of individuals, the trainers as a whole, and calling ACM gamey in an Air Combat Sim.  While you're at it, I'd also suggest pondering the word "mutual" in that context.



 

That I must say is one of the most intelligent statements I have seen concerning all the threads concerning these issues.   

Fred