attacking bomber formations

[LYNX]

Your earlier reply wasn't even in the same ballpark as the question.

Why is HOing a bomber any different than HOing a fighter?

The answer is, it's not. It's the same thing. Same action to acheive the same result. So, are both actions considered good tactics or are they both considered gamey? They can't be different so seeing that most consider HOing a bomber a valid tactic (here comes the truth) HOing a fighter must also be a valid tactic.

Allow me to bring my opinion to the table.  To be fair and to appreciate both sides of the argument it's best to be good in both modes i.e as a fighter attacking bombers and as a bomber defending against attacking fighters. 

As a fighter you are faced with with 3 to 9 SETS of machine guns firing at you simultaneously from 1 set of bombers.  Multiples there of if attacking close formations. This is suicidal if you approach from a dead six position even on just 1 set of bombers.  As stated the best attack position is a near vertical dive by a fighter onto a drone of a set of bombers. 1 fighter to 3 bombers.  The bomber pilot has the option to shot from the lead or #2 or #3 bomber in any gun position.  So...hoing a set of bombers isn't gamey due to a couple of factors.  1) the fighter is usually out gunned especially by late war bombers.  2) it's a minimum of a 3 to 1 ratio in favour of the bomber.  For a fighter to be the victor over a set of bombers, a minimum of 3 passes are required.  That's 3 passes of any kind of attacking position.  Hoing / slashing / diving/ dead six....ignoring internet connection / frame rate / Vsync.

Even if the bomber formation looses 1 drone but kills the fighter he still has 2 bombers left.  i.e enough bombs to make a mess if not accomplish his original objective.

Hoing a fighter on fighter is gamey because not only is it desperate and skilless it's simply a lottery as to whom the victor would be from a 1 pass merge...ignoring internet connection / frame rate / Vsync.

[Nilsen]

HOing a bomber is perfectly fine and not at all gamey. If i have the speed and alt to do it i will every time with 0 risk of getting pinged myself. It will take care of the first bomber and then you can go at the others with less guns to worry about.

[Anaxogoras]

For a fighter to be the victor over a set of bombers, a minimum of 3 passes are required.  That's 3 passes of any kind of attacking position.  Hoing / slashing / diving/ dead six....ignoring internet connection / frame rate / Vsync.

I guess we'll ignore the time I got 3 B-24s with one pass in a 190A-8 with the 30mm package.   How did I do it?  The 3-9 o'clock approach, put out a wall of lead, watch all 3 fly through it.

[Lusche]

Why is HOing a bomber any different than HOing a fighter?

Ok, I'll bite.

A fighter does have has it's armament facing forward. The main reason another fighter does try to avoid flying straight into his enemy's face is to aviod being shot down, the reason why a fighter tries to get on his opponent's six is to avoid being shot down. He does it by applying ACM to get there. It's done to minimize the risk.
Many players now to go for the HO against enemy fighters, because those are evading. Pointing your plane straight to your enemy is simpler. As both pilots try to get a guns solution on their respective target, the result is a HO.

Attacking a bomber's six is thus the easiest, but also most dangerous tactic. It's easy, because bombers do not evade or turn into you (remember, that's the thing that causes a HO when attacking a fighter). But it's also the most dangerous, because you face most of the bomber's firepower. A skillful pilot would now use ACM to avoid this situation and instead attack from another aspect. For example a frontal attack. This requires patience, timing and more precise maneuvering, but lowers the risk. It's more difficult.

The players that you constantly see attacking buffs from six o'clock are the same that always HO enemy fighters. It's the same: Both is usually dumb (facing most of your enemies firepower) and a result of a simple point and pull trigger tactic. Maneuvering to get onto a fighters 6 is done for the very same reasons as maneuvering NOT to get on a bomber's one. And both need skill and a minimum level of clue.

[dkff49]

When fighting a fighter it is about ACM since both are very capable of maneuvering. When you HO in a dogfight you pretty much eliminate or diminish the oppurtunity to have a fight. This is why HOing a fighter is not widely considered valid in game.


However when fighting a set of buffs with a fighter it is all about out the guns. Even with slashing attacks the fight is still about guns, you simply try to come in on them from an angle in which they won't be able to hit you easily with theirs. There is no real vying for position with a fighter against buffs like it is for fighters.


that is the difference for me even above the "safety" reasons that have been pointed out earlier.

[humble]

No problem HOing a set of buffs, as mentioned best thing is a top down attack. Normally the right drone is best choice but a lot is dependent on relative positioning. I disagree with the shoot the wingroot approach since most people shoot behind and end up in a tail chase situation on dive. I actually focus on the nose and then orient for a cockpit shot. It's easy to walk the rounds back to wingroot. If your set right and on the lead you can then hit a drone as well.

[CAP1]

hhhmmm..i don't see a pile-it in the cockpit.....were you ducking when you took that shot? 

[mtnman]

I'm still of the opinion that although the HO is dangerous, of a lower skill level, and seen as tasteless, it's still a legitimate option, and should be considered as a threat and allowed for in any fight.  

I don't do it, because I see it as a too-low chance of survival.  I don't teach it, because I think there are much better, higher-skill and higher probability-of-success options, and because I think it's so "instinctual" - such a basic attack style as to not need teaching.  I see it as legitimate, but I don't use it mainly because I prefer to land my kills more often.  I avoid it because I'm greedy- I want to kill the other guy safely.  I see avoiding the HO as smarter, but definitely not braver, more "right", or more "valiant". 

If I get HO'd, I generally see it as "Shame on me- I let that bozo get away with such a basic shot I could/should have easily seen it coming and allowed for it.  How foolish..."  If my opponent can end the fight as quickly and easily as that I need to work on a few things...

If out flying your opponent is the goal, why is it?  To show dominance or skill over your opponent?  Outwit him?  What better way than to kill him quickly at his first weak moment, his first mistake, the first time he gives you a kill shot?  Why bother to fight him at all if he can't look out for the most basic attack there is?  ACM is great, but why should you get to display your mastery of it if your opponent can defeat you before you even start?

HOing bombers?  Why would it be any more/less legitimate?  What if I'm strafing a GV or PT boat?  Is HOing allowed then?  If the GV or PT boat is shooting at someone else, is it cherry-picking?  What if the bomber is shooting at someone else?  Cherry-picking again?  Does ganging apply to bombers, GV's, and PTs?  Should we wait our turn, and attack bombers individually from co-alt 6 O'clock?

Keep in mind when discussing tasteful, legitimate, attack options in AH, what aerial attacks are all about is shooting someone where they're weakest and least able to defend themselves.  That means shooting bombers in the face or from above, and shooting fighters in the back.  Historically, shooting someone in the back was the act of a coward, not a valiant warrior.  It's interesting how that's been reversed.  I'm not saying I don't like it that way, it's just kind of humorous...

[Lusche]

 What if I'm strafing a GV or PT boat?  Is HOing allowed then?  If the GV or PT boat is shooting at someone else, is it cherry-picking?  What if the bomber is shooting at someone else?  Cherry-picking again?  Does ganging apply to bombers, GV's, and PTs? 

Just a few minutes ago someone PM'd me that he lost all respect for me, because I was repeatedly strafing his LVTs "from an angle where he couldn't shoot back" 

Should we wait our turn, and attack bombers individually from co-alt 6 O'clock?

Just like the countless henchmen in that old swashbuckler movies...

[Becinhu]

Becinhu.... seems you always kill me Sir <S>...please don't give away any secrets to your success!
<S> 999000

you give me too much credit.  Attacking your bombers is like attacking the Death Star.  I got one of your bombers the other night. When I saw it was you I took my one kill and ran like a little girl.  Surprise is one thing, I wasn't coming back when you knew I was there. 

[mtnman]

Just a few minutes ago someone PM'd me that he lost all respect for me, because I was repeatedly strafing his LVTs "from an angle where he couldn't shoot back" 

Just like the countless henchmen in that old swashbuckler movies...

LOL, that might even taint my respect for you Lusche!  Did you tell him he had an unfair advantage over you since his vehicle could out-turn yours, and didn't react so poorly at ultra-low speed?

[mtnman]

you give me too much credit.  Attacking your bombers is like attacking the Death Star.  I got one of your bombers the other night. When I saw it was you I took my one kill and ran like a little girl.  Surprise is one thing, I wasn't coming back when you knew I was there. 

He's way to brutal on my planes too Becinhu!  Gotta respect someone who can make his buffs so "salamanderly"!

[Lusche]

Did you tell him he had an unfair advantage over you since his vehicle could out-turn yours, and didn't react so poorly at ultra-low speed?

 

I will use that line next time 

[Kazaa]

If I have ample time I would start on his right drone to avoid the lag drone swapping positions and colliding,

HOing bombers is all good, he has 2 other lives and as long as you dont ram him perfectly acceptable.  The convergence speeds are x2 and less chance of him getting a good bead in his gunner.

My favourite AoA is nose low in a 262,  pull up at the last second and go for the belly, Only the best gunners will get enough pings at those speeds.

Don't listen to Bruv, the best AoA on buffs would be high 8-4 O'clock.

[LePaul]

Since I fly buffs almost exclusively, let me share a few thoughts...

* If I am going to a heavily defended region, I'll opt for a B-17 over a Lancaster, only because that ball turrent is invaluable.

* Head on if you like.  Just be aware, I have much more ammo there (especially the Lancaster)

* For those who have no patience and climb on my dead 6, you really need a better approach.  I love to idle the throttles so my range goes from 1.5k to perfect gun range for me quickly!  Many cons are slow and trying not to stall, so while they buffet around, I'm hammering away.

* High-head ons, attacks coming from 10-11 O'Clock or 1-2 O'Clock are the hardest to defend.  The gun convergence on the buffs makes long shots a real guess.

*  I shoot down more cons that sit in front of my buffs after a failed 6 oclock attack then any other.

*  I seem to encounter more attacks on my buffs after a bomb drop then enroute.  I find it amusing that cons will all but follow me home to kill me, while making no effort to tangle with another bomber inbound to their base/CV

See ya in the skies!