Aircraft performance and ENY

[Karnak]

And I stand by it.   I'll stand by any decision based on quantitative data over a hunch, any day, any week, any year.

As has been pointed out, your hard coded system would have an adverse effect on gameplay compared to the ad hoc one we have now simply due to the placement of the Bf110G-2 on your list.

In otherwords, yours is inferior as presented.

The fact is, there is a lot of complexity involved and you simply cannot use simple numbers to weight all of that complexity.

You also completely skipped the whole issue of aircraft handling quirks as they are largely subjective.  That doesn't mean they aren't there though.

[Anaxogoras]

Karnak, what you really mean to say is that this list mostly reflects the air-to-air ability of our fighters.   It would be easy to set the modifiers to more greatly emphasize town-pounding ability.

[Karnak]

Karnak, what you really mean to say is that this list mostly reflects the air-to-air ability of our fighters.   It would be easy to set the modifiers to more greatly emphasize town-pounding ability.

Right, but you can't ignore the fact that aircraft in AH are used for multiple things when you set ENY and that those things have an effect on gameplay.

[Baumer]

I applaud you efforts at developing a "Grand Unified Theory" for ENY and Aircraft Performance. This is no easy task, and as you can see, there are many differing points of view.

I would have to question values for the A6M5B and the Hurricane IIC.

Good luck with further refining your approach.

<S> Baumer

[Karnak]

One thing I notice is that you seem to be rating on a linear system.  Once top speed drops to a certain point turning and firepower count for more than speed.  I expect other traits will also fallow a curve as well.

[stroker71]

What would happen if you gave all categories the modifier of 1.0?  Instead of you deciding what is important ie top speed on the deck that would give an idea of the best over all fighter....yes...no.  Never claimed to be the brightest bulb in the pack but it seems by giving those vaules it's jilting the scale.  Because top speed on the deck is not the single best feature of an AC.... well not in AH atleast.

[Karnak]

What would happen if you gave all categories the modifier of 1.0?  Instead of you deciding what is important ie top speed on the deck that would give an idea of the best over all fighter....yes...no.  Never claimed to be the brightest bulb in the pack but it seems by giving those vaules it's jilting the scale.  Because top speed on the deck is not the single best feature of an AC.... well not in AH atleast.

No linear system will produce accurate results.

[Anaxogoras]

What would happen if you gave all categories the modifier of 1.0?  Instead of you deciding what is important ie top speed on the deck that would give an idea of the best over all fighter....yes...no.  Never claimed to be the brightest bulb in the pack but it seems by giving those vaules it's jilting the scale.  Because top speed on the deck is not the single best feature of an AC.... well not in AH atleast.

Although I agree with karnak on this one, for the sake of investigation, these are the unmodified scores:

F4U-4   0.74
Spit XVI   0.57
Spit XIV   0.55
P47N   0.51
F4U-1A   0.45
Tempest   0.43
F4U-1D   0.42
F4U-1C   0.41
P51B   0.39
P51D   0.38
Spit VIII   0.37
P38L   0.36
P47D-40   0.36
190D-9   0.31
F4U-1   0.28
P47D-25   0.25
KI84   0.24
190A-5   0.22
LA7   0.20
P38J   0.19
109 K-4   0.18
Spit IX   0.17
109 G-14   0.16
F6F   0.16
P47D-11   0.14
109 G-2   0.11
109 F-4   0.09
190A-8   0.08
LA5   0.08
TA152   0.08
C205   0.03
N1K2   0.02
190F-8   -0.01
YAK 9U   -0.01
Mossie   -0.03
Spit V   -0.03
109 G-6   -0.05
110 G   -0.05
C202   -0.06
Typhoon   -0.07
Seafire IIC   -0.10
P38G   -0.11
KI61   -0.18
YAK 9T   -0.22
P-39Q   -0.31
FM2   -0.33
110 C   -0.42
P40E   -0.42
Hurri IIC   -0.43
P-39D   -0.50
A6M5   -0.51
Hurri IID   -0.60
Spit I   -0.67
P40B   -0.68
Hurri I   -0.69
F4F   -0.73
109 E-4   -0.75
A6M2   -0.81

[Bronk]

LMAO 190 A5 above the 109 k4.

This thread gets better and better.  Glad I wasn't sipping my coffee when I read that.
 

[Anaxogoras]

LMAO 190 A5 above the 109 k4.

This thread gets better and better.  Glad I wasn't sipping my coffee when I read that.
 

Well, duh, that's what happens when you don't use the modifiers.   He wanted to see the raw scores and so I gave them to him.

That said, I changed two categories to better reflect the ability to gun down a town.  Instead of firing time for the weapon banks, it's now total destructive capacity for those weapon banks.  I bumped down speed asl, ballistics and combat time a bit, and gave these categories a weight of 1:

Tempest   0.81
F4U-4   0.68
Spit XIV   0.61
Spit XVI   0.58
F4U-1C   0.56
P47N   0.47
P38L   0.45
F4U-1A   0.43
LA7   0.42
110 G   0.39
Spit VIII   0.37
F4U-1D   0.34
109 K-4   0.33
P51D   0.32
TA152   0.32
190D-9   0.31
Mossie   0.31
F4U-1   0.30
P38J   0.30
P47D-40   0.30
N1K2   0.29
P51B   0.29
KI84   0.28
Typhoon   0.25
190A-8   0.21
P47D-25   0.21
P47D-11   0.20
109 G-14   0.17
LA5   0.17
F6F   0.13
Spit IX   0.13
YAK 9U   0.07
190A-5   0.06
C205   0.05
109 G-2   0.03
109 F-4   0.00
P38G   -0.01
109 G-6   -0.05
190F-8   -0.08
Spit V   -0.09
Seafire IIC   -0.19
YAK 9T   -0.20
KI61   -0.21
P-39Q   -0.22
C202   -0.32
Hurri IIC   -0.40
P-39D   -0.42
FM2   -0.48
P40E   -0.56
110 C   -0.64
Spit I   -0.71
A6M5   -0.77
F4F   -0.82
Hurri IID   -0.87
Hurri I   -0.93
109 E-4   -1.02
P40B   -1.02
A6M2   -1.06

It's an interesting experiment.  I'm still wondering if horizontal turn shouldn't be emphasized more to help the A6Ms and Hurri IIC.

[Bronk]

Look at the hurri IIc placement... funnay.

[Anaxogoras]

Look at the hurri IIc placement... funnay.

I know.  The trouble is that if I give more emphasis to horizontal turn, the Spitfire XVI will leap to the top of the list.

[Lusche]

P-38L..109K4...Ki-84


I think the list's clearly show that the result is not better in any way than what we have now. Still inconsistancoes, and it's still highly debatable. The individual category rankings are quite objective, but the assigned weight is purely subjective.

No one would be delighted more than old Lusche to have a trulyy objective, rational, easy computable system... but I can't see how that could be done.

[Saxman]

I think you're seriously over-weighting the weapons.

If you look at the some of their parts, I would HARDLY rate the 110G over ANY F4U (much less the 109K-4, P-51D, any Jug, the N1K2, etc. etc. etc.) in terms of overall combat capability. It's a good gun platform and strike craft, and if someone isn't paying attention she can give you a nasty surprise, but the 110 is THOROUGHLY out-classed as an air-to-air combatant.

For that matter, the Tempest doesn't belong at the top of the list. She's fast, yes, but maneuverability is average at best and performance begins to drop off significantly with altitude. 1v1 and assuming equal pilots and starting positions the F4U-4 will win about 90% of engagements between the two unless the Tempest turns tail and runs away (which is usually what happens). Her gun package isn't as good, but the -4 just has better capability of getting her guns ON target. Doesn't matter if your guns are bigger if the other guy is the one who has the shot.

[Bronk]

I know, combine your last ENY theory with this new one..... yeaaa that's the ticket.