Author Topic: Ki-84 and pilot wounds  (Read 1636 times)

Offline Anaxogoras

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Ki-84 and pilot wounds
« on: February 09, 2009, 01:45:08 AM »
This plane is one of the worst I've ever flown for pilot wounds.  It's usually the first or second kind of damage you take.  From what I understand the Ki-84 provided far more pilot protection than its predecessor Japanese fighters, but in the game it is worse.  For that matter, the Ki-61 and N1K are both more rugged.
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Offline frank3

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Re: Ki-84 and pilot wounds
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2009, 05:06:21 AM »
From what I understand the Ki-84 provided far more pilot protection than its predecessor Japanese fighters

I believe it was upgraded from none to little :)

Offline Gianlupo

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Re: Ki-84 and pilot wounds
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2009, 06:59:25 AM »
This plane is one of the worst I've ever flown for pilot wounds.  It's usually the first or second kind of damage you take.  From what I understand the Ki-84 provided far more pilot protection than its predecessor Japanese fighters, but in the game it is worse.  For that matter, the Ki-61 and N1K are both more rugged.

I mostly fly the 84 and, yep, it's really prone to PW. I don't know if the other japanese fighters are more rugged, but it's surely annoying, one of the 2 things I hate most of this otherwise wonderful plane. I always thought it's about the big "windowed" area of the cockpit, as opposed to other planes (in the 61 there is a lot of metal from behind; the Niki should be as prone to PW as the 84, though...).

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« Last Edit: February 09, 2009, 07:01:59 AM by Gianlupo »
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Offline Raygun

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Re: Ki-84 and pilot wounds
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2009, 08:47:42 AM »
This plane is one of the worst I've ever flown for pilot wounds.  It's usually the first or second kind of damage you take.  From what I understand the Ki-84 provided far more pilot protection than its predecessor Japanese fighters, but in the game it is worse.  For that matter, the Ki-61 and N1K are both more rugged.

Yeah, the Ki-84 and P-38 are really Pilot wound prone, get used to it  :cry


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Offline Kweassa

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Re: Ki-84 and pilot wounds
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2009, 10:27:26 AM »
Quote
I believe it was upgraded from none to little

13mm head/back armour, 65mm armoured glass canopy, and a self-sealing fuel tank. It was as well protected as any common fighter aircraft of the era.

 ...

From an empirical point of view, the pilot wound in the Ki-84 is indeed far more frequent than any other plane I've flown - frequent enough to warrant a complaint.

However, there could be fairly simple explanations as to what is causing such frequent PWs. One such explanation being;

...at least in my case, about 99% of the PWs I've experienced while flying the Ki-84, was during a sharp breaking turn to evade enemy fire. Since such a turn typically exposes the top portion of the cockpit which is unprotected by metal armour plates, the frequency of PWs under such conditions are entirely understandable.

Especially, since many pilots take note of the superior low-speed turning characteristics of the Ki-84, there is a high existing tendency of pilots who know how to fly the Ki-84 well enough, to use aggressive turn-and-bait tactics to lure the attacker behind him into a stall fight - and quite often, these pilots will attempt to draw in the enemy until dangerously close distances. If the tactic fails, and if somehow the enemy behind (at least momentarily) gains an angle sharp enough to make out a firing solution despite the superior turn of the Ki-84, then the Ki-84 exposes the top of the canopy at a very slow speed - which makes it a sitting duck.

Consider this:

If it was any other plane - perhaps a Zero, or a Hurricane, or even a Spitfire, you'd just be dead, and that would be the end of it. However, because the Ki-84 is a well protected plane, one might survive such an attack and take notice of the occuring pilot wound - and might think that PW occurs to often in the Ki-84, despite the fact that in any other plane, one might simply be pilot-dead, and instantly return to the tower.

If it was any other plane that didn't turn so well as a Ki-84, one would also simply be dead, since the enemy plane behind you would gain enough time for a steadier gun solution that would rip the plane to shreds. However, because it was a Ki-84, the enemy had only a brief moment to try to land a shot on you - and since the Ki-84 did turn well enough to evade most shots and get hit by only a few (albeit critical) shots near the canopy, you might survive it, and then notice a PW... and naturally be misled to think that the Ki-84 shows more PW than other planes.

 ...


Therefore, unless there is a definite, controlled test done concerning how often the Ki-84 falls to PW under which circumstances, I cannot really say there is a PW problem with the Ki-84. It might be nothing but a simple distortion of perception as to what happens with the Ki-84s.



« Last Edit: February 09, 2009, 10:32:31 AM by Kweassa »

Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: Ki-84 and pilot wounds
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2009, 10:40:40 AM »
I understand and agree with your analysis kweassa: there is no hard evidence that something is wrong.  However, the kind of tactics you describe that might lead to more pilot wounds are put into use by many other aircraft, like the N1K (tough as nails), another radial-engined Japanese fighter with a bubble canopy.

I'd be happy if HTC looked at it and I'd accept their findings.
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Offline mipoikel

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Re: Ki-84 and pilot wounds
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2009, 10:55:40 AM »
If you take hits,you are doing something wrong.  :t
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Offline Kweassa

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Re: Ki-84 and pilot wounds
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2009, 11:17:45 AM »
Quote
...However, the kind of tactics you describe that might lead to more pilot wounds are put into use by many other aircraft, like the N1K (tough as nails), another radial-engined Japanese fighter with a bubble canopy...


A very far-fetched, purely wild guess, but...





Despite the similar feel of the overall schematics, the cockpit of the N1K2-J is entirely located at the frontal half of the fuselage, whilst the cockpit of the Ki-84-1a is oriented at the direct center of the plane. The turning capabilities of both planes are roughly comparable and well matched.

Therefore, from the point of view of the attacking plane behind it, on average I'd say it'd be far more likely for an N1K2-J suffering hits (most probably somewhere between the center of the plane and the tail section (since on average lead-angle shots against tightly turning planes usually land in those places)) would lose either the entire rear fuselage or the tail section... whereas the Ki-84-1a, with its cockpit closer to the center of the plane, would have a higher chance of at least some hits landing on the top-rear part of cockpit, where the pilot is located. Come to think of it (at least to me) the usual image of the N1K2-J being shot down is indeed the rear half or tail section being  ripped apart, and suddenly the whole plane flopping to face skywards - during an attempted evasive turn.

Ofcourse, such difference is minute.. but maybe under such circmustances, such small differences might manifest itself in detail.

On a side note, one could also notice the heavier framing of the N1K2-J, although I'm not really sure just what kind of difference it would exhibit being under fire - like I said, it's a wild guess.



ps)

Another interesting case might be the P-38, which is also claimed to suffer higher PW rates than other planes. P-38 pilots are known to take exceptional pride in their preference to combat lighter, nimbler planes in aggressive stall fights. While it has unique characteristics which aid in maneuvering, in terms of pure performance (as in radius) the P-38 is actually a very poor turner, exhibiting the largest turn radius among all US planes in the game. (It's true!)

One may be able to assume that if a lighter, nimbler plane does get the upperhand against a P-38 trying a tight turn, it may find it a lot easier to gain a leading shot against it, than perhaps the N1K2 or the Ki-84.

...and since from that angle the rear half of the P-38 is practically empty, naturally, any shots against the P-38 would be probably be directed against the frontal half of the fuselage - at which, ofcourse, the cockpit rests.

Maybe this is one of the 'secrets' as to why the P-38 also suffers a lot of PWs... (..other than the fact that there isn't a "rear fuselage" blocking the immediate backside of the pilot's position as in other planes, ofcourse...)
« Last Edit: February 09, 2009, 11:34:58 AM by Kweassa »

Offline Sincraft

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Re: Ki-84 and pilot wounds
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2009, 06:27:37 PM »
This plane is one of the worst I've ever flown for pilot wounds.  It's usually the first or second kind of damage you take.  From what I understand the Ki-84 provided far more pilot protection than its predecessor Japanese fighters, but in the game it is worse.  For that matter, the Ki-61 and N1K are both more rugged.

omfg yea, this is a 20 eny plane not a 15 for this very reason.
Just as a p51 is not an 8 with the planes in game today...the only reason it would drop to an 8 would be for the range and that's not applicable in this game.

Ask Delta - there is something wrong with the p51 50cals (or with the p40) either way they are NOT the same 50cal and yet the p40 50's are far more effective!!!)

But, i doubt hitech REALLY audits their settings and goes back over things, maybe I'm wrong though :)

Offline morfiend

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Re: Ki-84 and pilot wounds
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2009, 06:34:00 PM »
 Fly the mossie for awhile then tell me the 84 gets alot of PW's.

 It seems to me that the 38 and mossie both get more than their fair share of pilot wounds.

 I'm not complaining though,just making an observation.

Offline Banshee7

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Re: Ki-84 and pilot wounds
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2009, 06:35:32 PM »
Funny thing is....I rarely ever get PWs in either the 38 OR Mossie
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Offline splitatom

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Re: Ki-84 and pilot wounds
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2009, 06:50:18 PM »
Yeah, the Ki-84 and P-38 are really Pilot wound prone, get used to it  :cry
you forgot the f4u1a also gets it quite a bit
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Offline humble

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Re: Ki-84 and pilot wounds
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2009, 07:32:06 PM »
Easy solution....


Don't let the other guy shoot you :aok

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Offline 1Boner

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Re: Ki-84 and pilot wounds
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2009, 07:41:10 PM »
Did the KI-84 really shed parts like it does in this game?

I don't think I've been in any other plane in the game that is sooo prone to stuff ripping off at high speed.

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Offline Hungry

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Re: Ki-84 and pilot wounds
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2009, 08:05:23 PM »
Did the KI-84 really shed parts like it does in this game?

I don't think I've been in any other plane in the game that is sooo prone to stuff ripping off at high speed.



Never had that problem did auger a few times before I learned to manage my speed better, pilot wounds are another matter, hardly a night goes by without one
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