Author Topic: Two films, would like some help  (Read 938 times)

Offline Anaxogoras

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Two films, would like some help
« on: February 10, 2009, 03:57:13 PM »
Here are two films from the DA today.  In the first one, after shooting me down repeatedly, I had a semi-prolonged fight with m00t, but I still lost the merge (like I did every time).  He was always able to get more out of it while still gaining snap shot opportunities on me in the vertical.  One thing I saw that opened my eyes a bit was that he wasn't doing a straight immelmann, but something more like a chandelle.  I usually make my merges more vertically, but after adjusting to his technique and trying to adapt it I think I was doing better.

The other film is very short, but it's important to me because shane once used the exact same move as batfink does here to kill me when I think I'm going to catch them hanging.  Against shane I was in a F6F, he was in a La-7, and just like the fight you see here, I worked into a horizontal turning-fight which I thought would be to my advantage (even more so 109G-6 vs Mossie).  Just when I'm getting the nose around he goes vertical, and slices back to introduce me to the 4 hissos.  What should I have done once I saw him going up?

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?giyqnfuniin
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?zzmidwmminn
gavagai
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Offline SPKmes

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Re: Two films, would like some help
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2009, 05:06:15 PM »
I have not seen the film but your information of the first is similar to my DA experiences with squadies. As you said your opponent would seem to gain an advantage on the merge and if it is the same experience I had I felt I was get around quicker..... yes I was getting around quicker however I would drain more energy to do this as opposed to a less vert 45-50° maneuver Yo Yo for example of an opponent which gets you around slower but allows E retention and more vert capabilities allowing them to dictate if you tried to follow up for a second or third time. By the third vert manuvre I would normally be able to pull off 1/2-3/4 of it before becoming a lump of target metal. When we talked through what I did and how I approached these duals I found my down fall was to bring my MA style of fighting to the DA. MA I found that what I did worked from time to time  due to the fact that most of the time your opponent is yanking and banking just as hard to get around and knock you out of the virtual skies just as fast as you are so that you can pick the next fight before it picks you.


I suppose I'd better go and check the films now.

Sorry if I have just stated the obvious.

Just watched...I'd have to say a little unlucky with your gunnery also. If you look at the speeds you'll notice you bled your E then were denied the opportunities to fully regain.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2009, 06:27:34 PM by SPKmes »

Offline mtnman

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Re: Two films, would like some help
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2009, 10:15:37 PM »
Here are two films from the DA today.  In the first one, after shooting me down repeatedly, I had a semi-prolonged fight with m00t, but I still lost the merge (like I did every time).  He was always able to get more out of it while still gaining snap shot opportunities on me in the vertical.  One thing I saw that opened my eyes a bit was that he wasn't doing a straight immelmann, but something more like a chandelle.  I usually make my merges more vertically, but after adjusting to his technique and trying to adapt it I think I was doing better.

The other film is very short, but it's important to me because shane once used the exact same move as batfink does here to kill me when I think I'm going to catch them hanging.  Against shane I was in a F6F, he was in a La-7, and just like the fight you see here, I worked into a horizontal turning-fight which I thought would be to my advantage (even more so 109G-6 vs Mossie).  Just when I'm getting the nose around he goes vertical, and slices back to introduce me to the 4 hissos.  What should I have done once I saw him going up?

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?giyqnfuniin
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?zzmidwmminn

I don't fly 109's, and I must not have the skins downloaded for the first film, because all I could see was your gauges, fighting an invisible plane.  I could see the icon and the trails though...

I'm not an expert either, but I'd have changed a few things on the first merge. 

One, on the merge you let him get started on his turn first.  You can't always help that, but then you turned the same direction he did (you both turned left), which in my mind gives him a head start getting on your six.  I'd have started by banking to your right, or into his turn, rather than following his turn.  It might not have worked though...  In your situation at 20 seconds in, I'd have pulled down under/behind him, and then pulled back up behind him at what would have been about 25 seconds in.
Second, once you missed your shot at the top, you basically got into a series of fairly flat defensive banks, which bled your E, and felt purely defensive from my perspective.  I'd have tried to pull him into a rolling scissors instead, starting at about 50 seconds into the film.  I felt like you let him have repeated vertical attacks until he wore you down.  Had you continued with a barrel roll at about 50 seconds I think you would have had a much better chance.

Overall I'd have tried doing more rolling, barrel-rolling type dodges, which is harder to hit and stay behind than the flatter left-right banks. 

Film two- Mainly I felt like your use of throttle killed your chances once you'd missed killing him at the top.  You were doing a couple things in that dive/spiral I'd have avoided.  One, I wouldn't necessarily have followed him all the way down.  You could have leveled out, or even zoomed to stay above him, and had an advantage that way.  Two, you cut power and had flaps down (I'm assuming in an effort to avoid over-shooting, and to tighten your turn) but essentially you couldn't keep up with him.  At the end all he did was nose up and basically rope you.  He could do that with the extra speed he had, and the extra time due to you falling behind.

He was clearly winning the race around the circle by about 44 seconds in.  At that point I'd have straightened, built speed for a few seconds, and reversed into him again.  When he went up at the end, the last thing you want to do is follow him.  Almost anything would have increased your chances at that point.  Forced into that situation I'd have turned out of that circle before he could do that.  Letting Batfinkv shoot at me never goes well.

Overall on the second one, I felt like you followed him, but didn't really commit to it by following hard/tight enough to force the situation.  Instead you followed him in a manner where he was able to dictate the terms.  You followed his lead, and he placed you where he wanted to.  It made you predictable.  Following him tight/close can be dangerous- it can set you up for an overshoot, bleed your E, etc...  An alternative is to fight "looser", gaining an E advantage and setting up some attacks from above.  You could have done that by pulling out of the spiral near the beginning of it.  I would have done it by pulling up at about 28 seconds in, full throttle and WEP, at least long enough to set up a position above and behind him.  Essentially I felt liek you didn't really commit to either style...

I'm not saying you did bad in either.  You fought two guys who know what they're doing.  And I'm not saying I'd have lived either, just that those are areas where I'd have done things differently...
MtnMan

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Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: Two films, would like some help
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2009, 08:29:47 AM »
Thank you mtnman!  The time indexes will be a big help.  In the 2nd film what sounds like me cutting my throttle is probably me just going back to military power from WEP; sometimes the recordings don't give you the correct sounds.
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Offline SlapShot

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Re: Two films, would like some help
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2009, 12:18:19 PM »
I don't have much comments on the 1st film. Nothing against your flying, but I felt as tho Moot was prolonging the fight ... I could be wrong. One thing I did learn from that film was that the 152 can float like a butterfly and zoom like a bee. I did not expect that from that plane.

Second film ...

Bat did show his hand early with a lead turn, but really showed his intentions just before you lose sight of him ... he dipped his left wing big time and committed to a left hand turn. Unless I know that I can get inside a turn like that at the merge (knowing the plane type and what speed/smash I have), I pull opposite (so I would have pulled left) to get into a lag pursuit merge. This gives me options to follow and/or break off and reset (gain some more speed/E).

You followed him and did a good job of spoiling a guns solution and then continued up to a nice snapshot.

I too would have followed him down, but I would have tried more aggressively to get in behind him. Like mntnam, I am no 109 jock (I do like the F model), so I don't know if it was possible for you to be more aggressive with the rudder to try and nestle in behind him.

Anyhow, once you were at the bottom of the spiral and started to get into phase with his circle turn, I might have done almost the same thing that he did to you ... pull up and barrel-roll over to try to lose some speed and get inside his turn.

Never the less you followed him ... but here is where it really went wrong for you ... you took your eyes off him ... just before he started his climb.

During that very short time, you never realized that he did go vertical, you were still pulling into him and losing speed all the while. Once you realized that he went up, you tried to follow, but because you scrubbed your speed/E you were a sitting duck and to make it even worse, when you tried to break off the climb, you went left ... right into is flight path. Maybe if you broke right, he might not have been able to adjust, due to his low airspeed, and you might have had another chance.

Had you not taken your eyes off of him, as soon as he started to pull up, you could have then decided ... do I have what it takes to follow and if not, you then could have straightened out and tried to pull away to gain some more speed as he dropped down from his climb. At that point, you might have had a better chance to present some angles to spoil his move.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2009, 12:21:52 PM by SlapShot »
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Offline BnZs

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Re: Two films, would like some help
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2009, 05:49:46 PM »
The Ta-152 has a relatively high-wing loading, and a turn-radius between that of the 190-A5 and 190-D9.

However, unexpectedly, its "glider" wings seem to make it hold speed while pulling Gs very well. In fact, it can be a frustrating airplane if you need to dump speed with power cuts and high-G maneuvers. Because of this while the 152's sustained circle is poor, its sustained rate is actually respectable.
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Offline moot

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Re: Two films, would like some help
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2009, 03:34:58 PM »
I don't fly 109's, and I must not have the skins downloaded for the first film, because all I could see was your gauges, fighting an invisible plane.  I could see the icon and the trails though..
I get that too. Clicking on different view modes and coming back to cockpit fixes it.
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Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: Two films, would like some help
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2009, 03:53:04 PM »
Thank you for the helpful comments.  I fought batfink some more in the DA today, and though he still won every fight, I felt like I did a little better than before.
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Offline mtnman

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Re: Two films, would like some help
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2009, 07:14:35 PM »
I get that too. Clicking on different view modes and coming back to cockpit fixes it.

Ahhh, ty sir!  I'd noticed that watching certain films sometimes they'd work fine, others not.  Couldn't figure out why...
MtnMan

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Offline mechanic

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Re: Two films, would like some help
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2009, 03:22:48 PM »
Hey Gav, I think the shot i took was close to a HO.  It was really just unlucky that you didnt kill me on the second merge, same fight again and you may have hit something vital which would have made it almost impossible for me to recover.
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Offline moot

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Re: Two films, would like some help
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2009, 04:06:43 PM »
In fact, it can be a frustrating airplane if you need to dump speed with power cuts and high-G maneuvers.
(wrong) ;)
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Offline Bosco123

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Re: Two films, would like some help
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2009, 04:22:29 PM »
That's what it looked like to me in the first film. simple E diffrences. There was nothing wrong with your style of fighting, would have made it very hard for me to fight you, you fight the same way I do. They just can sustain some much more E, it realy isn't a match, if you know how to use it.
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Offline Agent360

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Re: Two films, would like some help
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2009, 11:57:28 PM »
The second film is "classic". This move gets more people killed than any other. I can be done in almost any plane. But is most famous with the 109's. Bat did a more loose version of it. 109's tend to draw you in closer before the reverse.

The first mistake came with attempting that shot at the top. You did do very good getting the guns but it cost you by dropping out under him. But that was not why you got killed.

You recovered and chased him down in a spiral turning dive. This turned into a flat turn contest at the deck. The mossie will out turn a 109 in a flat turn. Not a real problem but you continued to attempt to out turn him on the deck at speeds of around 200. He had flaps our way before you did....im not sure you even had flaps out. But that is not really important.

The real mistake came when you pulled really hard to almost getting guns but that ended up being a merge. Bat had the turn radius and as soon and he saw you pull hard for it he went up to verticle. You kept the flat turn going while he was going vert. From your cockpit that "looks" like you are going to get guns...but it is only an illusion. By the time you pulled up he had already made his reversal at the top and had guns on you before you had any chance of getting your nose up enough for guns.

The counter you should have made was extending out and matching his virticle pull up into a "pitch back" to the opposite way he reversed. IF he reversed left you extend and pitch back right. This will bring you to another merge with you having recovered your energy. You simply kept your flat turn while he was going up.

Watch the film in "fixed" view with trails and you will see how your continued flat turn AFTER he pulled up got you killed.

The only time you can safely get guns like this is if you are inside the turn radius of the other plane and inside d400. If you are out side d600 he has enough speration to make the reversal and get guns on you coming down BEFORE you can get your nose up to him.

Again the counter is to straiten out and pitch back the opposite way.

 




Offline mechanic

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Re: Two films, would like some help
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2009, 12:59:54 AM »
One thing i would say is the mosquito, when learnt, has a fantastic stall character quite similar to a P38, though without counter rotating props. The torque can even be a blessing sometimes and others a curse. This being the case a practiced mossie driver will be able to point the nose almost any direction desired from that type of stall turn. Very dangerous for anyone who does not put the nose down and run till 1.5k before reversing.
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Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: Two films, would like some help
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2009, 11:24:48 AM »
The mossie will out turn a 109 in a flat turn.

Thank you for your comments, but the 109G-6 out turns the Mossie unless the fuel loadouts are drastically weighted in the Mossie's favor. :)
gavagai
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