RUMOR... NEW PLANE PBY BLACK CATS!

[Saxman]

Probably the same place the crews got the idea in the field. They had a couple guns lying around and had a need for the firepower.

That may be the biggest problem of HTC giving us a true "Black Cat" PBY. They were so heavily-modified and field-rigged it's impossible to adequately cover ALL the possible configurations. Maybe we'll get a couple gun package options like the 25C?

If we ARE getting the PBY, I'm betting on a standard -5A or -6.

[Ack-Ack]

Found this site on the Black Cats.  Pretty interesting articles about the Black Cats and how they started. 

Here's a story about a weapon modification done to one of the PBYs.

LAHODNEY'S  GUNS
Back at Palm Island, Australia, Patrol Bombing Squadron 52 under Lieutenant Commander H. A. "Hal" Sommer had been readying itself to move north and relieve VPB-11. Here, one of the war's more colorful Black Cat pilots, Lieutenant W. J. "Bill" Lahodney, was deeply involved in a project which he hoped would substantially increase the striking power of the Catalina. Something was needed, he felt, to enable a Cat to press home an attack even after all bombs or torpedoes had been expended. Further, he knew that they would encounter many targets, too small to waste bombs on, which would succumb to an attack by concentrated gunfire.

In his quest for increased firepower, Lahodney made several flights in the Army's B-25 bombers and was impressed with their gunfire capabilities. These planes had 75-millimeter cannon in the nose but also mounted several fixed-quad .50-caliber machine guns which were of particular interest to the Cat pilot. He decided to with the same .50-caliber installation in the nose of his PBY. It was a somewhat radical concept and, as might be expected, there were many raised eyebrows. The PBY after all was a patrol plane, not a fighter, and it was the opinion of some that the fifties would tear the nose off of the airplane. The old Cat was simply not built to take that kind of abuse, they said. Others thought the installation would have an adverse affect on aircraft weight and balance. Few were optimistic that the idea would work.

Lahodney was not to be deterred. Removing the bombsight (which had not proven very effective for the specialized work of the Black Cats) and the small bow plate window, he bolted the guns, mounted two over two, to the keel of the big boat. The top set of two were mounted forward of the lower set, so the muzzles of all four were aft of the angled bow plate. An aluminum panel with four blast tubes extending forward for seven inches replaced the window, and was all that was visible of the lethal addition from an exterior view. An electric trigger on the pilot's yoke, and a selector switch which permitted the pilot to fire the guns individually or together, completed the installation. Bill Lahodney was confident that the Cat would not only withstand the vibration of the fifties, but that the twin thirties normally mounted just above that spot could be retained along with the gunner's position.

With a minimum volunteer crew, consisting of himself, a flight engineer, and a bow gunner, Lahodney took off from the Palm Island seadrome to try out his idea. Dropping a floating smoke light in the water for a target, he executed a wing-over and put the Cat into a steep dive. Eyeballing the burning smoke light    he pressed the trigger and the fifties responded with a burst that churned the water and extinguished the smoke. That was the kind of firepower he was looking for, he thought with satisfaction. During the run he had also noted that the extra weight in the nose had no perceptible effect on the aircraft's performance. The test was repeated with the same result and upon returning to base, a careful inspection revealed that the old Cat had shouldered her new burden without complaint. The experiment was a complete success, so much so that quad fifties were installed in at least three planes in every succeding squadron.

Other tests also bore out Lahodney's views. They demonstrated that a gunner could straddle the quad mount and operate the thirties with almost as much mobility as before. A burlap pad was placed on the hot .50-caliber barrels to prevent the gunner from being burned.

One problem with the installation was that because of its positioning it was difficult to keep salt water from getting into the muzzles. Rubber plugs were made to fit in the blast tubes but they leaked badly. Then someone got the idea that the standard rubber devices used for the prevention of venereal disease would be just the thing to make the blast tubes watertight. And they were.

In preparing for the coming deployment, Lahodney flew over to Townsville on the Australian mainland on a supply run. He picked up two additional quad mounts from the Army Supply Depot and an unusually large quantity of condoms to protect the gun muzzles. The swells were heavy that day and during the take-off run one bounced the Cat into the air prematurely. The starboard wing dropped about forty degrees and full power on the starboard engine would not bring it level. It hit the water and broke off and the rest of the airplane came down hard. As it began to sink, Lahodney again applied full throttle and ran the broken Cat up on the rocks of the Townsville breakwater. Incredibly, no one was hurt.

With a heavy on-shore wind, the condoms were scattered about and it looked like there were many thousands as they floated ashore. Lahodney recalls that since there were no women on Palm Island there was much humorous speculation concerning the intended use of all those contraceptives.

ack-ack

[Ack-Ack]

That may be the biggest problem of HTC giving us a true "Black Cat" PBY. They were so heavily-modified and field-rigged it's impossible to adequately cover ALL the possible configurations. Maybe we'll get a couple gun package options like the 25C?

True and it would also have to come without a bomb sight, Black Cats didn't use them and removed them from their craft.  It wouldn't be unreasonable to expect one of the weapon packages to be the quad .50 calibers, it was a standard weapons package.



Here's another one showing the 20mm cannons.




ack-ack

[AWwrgwy]

Couldn't it hold 2 torpedoes? I could imagine people going 60mph on the water with the dang thing and dropping them 100 feet away under the dar.

Ju88



wrongway

[Saxman]

True and it would also have to come without a bomb sight, Black Cats didn't use them and removed them from their craft.  It wouldn't be unreasonable to expect one of the weapon packages to be the quad .50 calibers, it was a standard weapons package.

(Image removed from quote.)

Here's another one showing the 20mm cannons.

(Image removed from quote.)


ack-ack

Ok so even though the quad .50s were a field mod, it was wide-spread enough I think it would warrant use as a weapons package for the PBY. Treat it like the B25C and turn it from a "glass nose" to a "solid nose."

Anyone know how common those twin 20mm were?

[Simaril]

Nice rumor generation....but most unlikely to come to the game, IMHO.

Primary reason is that the plane's primary roles are irrelevant to AH. We have no need for pilot rescue, no need for scouting, no need for night flying, and no need for seaplane capability. Those features simply don't apply.

That leaves us with an extraordinarily slow, poorly maneuverable, undergunned, large target.





It's a c-47 with pontoons.....except the goon flies faster.

[Saxman]

It's a c-47 with pontoons.....except the goon flies faster.

...and doesn't carry 4000lbs of ordinance and has no defensive capability whatsoever. I'm certain if the PBY was added she would see use, especially running supplies out of ports, which the C-47 CAN'T do (except for the couple maps where the ports have runways).

Also you ought to think about scenarios. She may not be particularly relevant to the mains, but I think she'd be an excellent addition to FSO, Scenarios, Snapshots, etc., especially in PTO setups.

And if we DO ever get subs (which HTC has always said is something he wants to implement) the PBY was the war's premier ASW aircraft.

[Karnak]

H8K2 would be a better addition.  It is more capable by far and would add to the small Japanese planeset.  Either would be welcome.

[Saxman]

Add them both, but with a perk on the H8K.

However I think the PBY should come first. She made a much larger contribution to the war than a rare beast like the H8K (and you have to respect the 100,000+ tons of shipping and dozen or so warships sunk by the Black Cats).

[GuyNoir]

Oh man, I would love a PBY... 

Besides adding subs to go along with it (), Hitech could add a mechanic where, if someone got shot down in a perk plane, the PBY could fly out, rescue the guy, and have all or some of his perk points added back to his total (and give the PBY pilot bomber points).

...maybe it could also reveal enemy dots on the map within a certain radius like a modern day AWACs (to fulfill the scouting role)... maybe base-supplying shipping convoys could be added so the PBY could really get into its historic ASW role...  ...maybe night could come back to give night-fighters something to do.

Like Saxman and others said, it'd be great too to have a plane that could up and supply from non-airfield ports and supply cv fleets at all.

With all of that plus 4000lbs or ord/depth charges/torpedoes, the PBY could have a legitimate use in the Main...


Also, I think that since they've finally ditched the Axis v. Allies, Hitech should really start adding side-mechanics like these (as well as a real strat war) to give us other stuff to do besides dogfighting and base-killing...  ...it'd be great for the game and would really hold our interest.

[Ack-Ack]

Ok so even though the quad .50s were a field mod, it was wide-spread enough I think it would warrant use as a weapons package for the PBY. Treat it like the B25C and turn it from a "glass nose" to a "solid nose."

Anyone know how common those twin 20mm were?

I think you could also have a viable argument to having beer bottles as a weapons package since it was a common practice to throw out beer bottles during their nightly harassment raids.  I don't know about you, but it would be really cool to have a plane in the game that has a weapon load out selection of beer bottles.

ack-ack

[Megalodon]

Thank you for bringing this up 999000 <S>
I have a good deal of enjoyment reading about these planes and some of the stories like this guy..

 "...about this 195 miles per hour stat. Let me give you both an "eyewitness account of just how fast a PBY-5 goes when the PPC say's let's get the hell out of here. We began a glide bombing attack on a Jap light cruiser late one night from an altitude of 1900 feet; we levelled off at 1100 feet, dropped our bombs, dropped to five feet off the water as my PPC said to me, "Beau, give me full emergency rich and pray. At that point our trusty beast was going a little over 90 miles per hour wide open. We sank the cruiser and he and I were given a DFC (by the Air Corps.) Our trusted Navy powers that be said we didn't do it. General Kenney's B-25 pilots confirmed the kill. That's why our DFC citations are signed by a General. This was not intended as a "war story" but I had to illustrate that PBY-5's just didn't do 195 miles per hour. The wing design (thick and wide) was intended for very long range---not speed..."
Contributed by Roland Beauregard

"A front row seat to one of these night fleet battles was an awesome experience with unbelievable fire intensity on both sides. In one instance, I witnessed the death of one of our cruisers which suffered direct magazine hit and blew up with a fireball climbing thousands of feet.

By now it was known that the Japanese had established a major base at Tonolei Harbor on Bougainville, the northern most island in the Solomon chain. This greatly reduced their supply line length from Truk and therefore their attacks would intensify. In mid-October, our Intelligence had uncovered the fact that a very large enemy carrier force was being assembled there. On October 22, Jack Coley, "Whiskey" Willis and I had torpedoes loaded under our port wings and made plans to fly 900 miles for a night attack on the Japanese fleet. Since room within the harbor would be greatly restricted, torpedoes were set to arm after a 200 yard run. We entered the harbor at about 0200 hours on October 23, undetected and caught the Japanese Fleet at anchor except for destroyers on sentinel duty on the entrance.

Once inside the harbor the formation split up with each of us seeking our own target. Ships were visible everywhere.

At 400 yards I was stabilized at 90 knots and 25 feet. At 300 yards, flying 80 knots and 20 feet, I pulled the release handle and called for full power.

Out of my left eye I saw the torpedo enter the water and start a true course.

During the pull-up to get over the cruiser I pulled the handle to release two 500-pound bombs. The PBY shuddered as the weapons exploded. The crew members at the waist hatches reported direct hits but it was not possible to determine the extent of the damage. "


A few more shots:

port gunner postion


rescue


Allot going on in this picture complete with supervisor 

Another great page for the pby
http://www.vpnavy.net/blackcats.html

[SectorNine50]

The PBY always reminds me of a really odd looking Grumman Goose...



Who produced the PBY?

[1pLUs44]

Ju88



wrongway

No no... I mean ON the water. Like floating

[Roundeye]

Who produced the PBY?

Everything you want to know and then some....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PBY_Catalina