Author Topic: Combat Flaps  (Read 1790 times)

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Re: Combat Flaps
« Reply #45 on: February 17, 2009, 08:09:18 PM »
He also snap rolled and died later on in the war using the same tactic  :aok

Congratulations on not having the slightest idea what you are talking about. See my previous post on the death of Major Thomas B. McGuire. Because you evidently know nothing of what you speak.

The best theory is that when McGuire went to throttle back up, the inside engine did not respond, and he rolled inverted and could not recover. Unless asymmetric power is applied, the P-38 has a very strong tendency to mush out of a turn rather than snap roll. The P-38 simply didn't roll with great authority unless it was at fairly high speed, or asymmetric power was applied.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

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Offline colmbo

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Re: Combat Flaps
« Reply #46 on: February 17, 2009, 08:19:24 PM »

Something tells me there was a lot more to working the engine than just 3 levers. ;)  All you would've had to do was look up the same article before you got in a huff crying "BS."

Throttle, prop and mixture control the engine.  If super/turbo charged there will be a control for that, but probably wouldn't have to be adjusted right away.  The cowl flaps you can also ignore until an adjustment is needed to control engine heat.  (Just because you're making more power doesn't alway mean the engine will be hotter -- if you're also going faster there is more airflow for cooling).

I guess the 3400 hours I've spent flying airplanes, 600 of which is in WWII aircraft, makes me think the way I do.  I only takes about 5 seconds to bring the power up on the B-24 and that requires moving 8 levers and 4 toggle switches. <G>
« Last Edit: February 17, 2009, 08:28:40 PM by colmbo »
Columbo

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Offline colmbo

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Re: Combat Flaps
« Reply #47 on: February 17, 2009, 08:22:27 PM »
your slowing down faster when flaps drop.... its creating drag and you will begin to stall out

Flaps do add drag so you will slow quicker but that doesn't mean you're going to stall.  A competent pilot will adjust pitch as needed to prevent the stall.
Columbo

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."

Fate whispers to the warrior "You cannot withstand the storm" and the warrior whispers back "I AM THE STORM"

Offline Brooke

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Re: Combat Flaps
« Reply #48 on: February 18, 2009, 03:26:10 PM »
600 of which is in WWII aircraft

Cool!  Which WWII aircraft have you flown?

Offline Kweassa

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Re: Combat Flaps
« Reply #49 on: February 18, 2009, 03:46:45 PM »
Quote
Congratulations on not having the slightest idea what you are talking about. See my previous post on the death of Major Thomas B. McGuire. Because you evidently know nothing of what you speak.

The best theory is that when McGuire went to throttle back up, the inside engine did not respond, and he rolled inverted and could not recover. Unless asymmetric power is applied, the P-38 has a very strong tendency to mush out of a turn rather than snap roll. The P-38 simply didn't roll with great authority unless it was at fairly high speed, or asymmetric power was applied.

Although the main cause may be attributed to a mechanical failure (if the theory is valid, that is) , I don't think over aggressiveness can be ruled out as an important background that ulitmately led to his death - especially, since this is McGuire we're talking about.

Therefore, I'd say that tactical misjudgement did play some part in his death. Would McGuire have had enough time to try and bail were he not so aggressive in his last encounter? I think so.



 ...

Overconfidence, impetuousness, and dangerously high preference towards dogfighting that directly contradicts the general tactical recommendations against fighting better maneuvering planes, is all a death factor that claimed innumerable many young pilots - much more than 'aces' have been born out of them. Landing 14-round HO shots to the cockpit to kill the pilot is something that works for people like Marseilles, but would never amount up to much as a standard tactic. The same with 'flapfest' dogfighting.

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Re: Combat Flaps
« Reply #50 on: February 18, 2009, 04:12:07 PM »
Although the main cause may be attributed to a mechanical failure (if the theory is valid, that is) , I don't think over aggressiveness can be ruled out as an important background that ulitmately led to his death - especially, since this is McGuire we're talking about.

Therefore, I'd say that tactical misjudgement did play some part in his death. Would McGuire have had enough time to try and bail were he not so aggressive in his last encounter? I think so.



 ...

Overconfidence, impetuousness, and dangerously high preference towards dogfighting that directly contradicts the general tactical recommendations against fighting better maneuvering planes, is all a death factor that claimed innumerable many young pilots - much more than 'aces' have been born out of them. Landing 14-round HO shots to the cockpit to kill the pilot is something that works for people like Marseilles, but would never amount up to much as a standard tactic. The same with 'flapfest' dogfighting.

In the particular fight that is the subject of this hijack, McGuire was trying hard, not just to score but to clear his own wingman, Weaver. Now, was it an aggressive decision for McGuire to call that drop tanks shouldn't be dropped, earlier in the fight? Yes. Was it out of line, considering McGuire knew he had three other good pilots with him against a single plane? It may or may not have been. For years, no one, including Weaver and Thropp, who were there, even knew of a second enemy plane being involved. So holding tanks when you have the odds in your favor 4 to 1 might be questionable, but you can see that given what they knew of the situation, it may not have seemed out of line.

That is not to say that McGuire was not very aggressive, possibly to a fault, he may well have been, more cautious pilots thought he was. McGuire stated not long before he died that he feared his luck could be running out. He felt he could not go home of his own will, he felt that he should wait until he was ordered to go home in no uncertain terms. And he knew the only way for that to happen was to equal or exceed Bong's score. The only way to do that was to fly and to score, as he also felt he could not order others to fly while he sat safely behind a desk.

McGuire's death, like most other things of that nature, can be attributed not to any one thing, but a series of circumstances that, had any one of those circumstances been altered even slightly, an entirely different outcome would have been very likely. Did McGuire contribute to his own death? Quite possibly. Was it entirely due to his flying style and tactics? Probably not.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

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Offline Murdr

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Re: Combat Flaps
« Reply #51 on: February 18, 2009, 04:38:28 PM »
On a side note (to a hijack lol) here are a couple of interesting quotes that relate to McGuire:

This is from General Kenney's book on Bong...
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"You see, General," said Tommy (McGuire), "that Fourty-ninth gang up at Tacloban didnt want Dick (Bong) going along with them any more, as he was stealing too many Nips from them, so he came down here to see if we would let him fly with the 475th. We figured we were good enough so we could take care of our own interests along that line, so we said it would be okay. This morning he saw me getting ready to take off for a look at the Jap fields over on Mindanno and suggested that he go along. I had a hunch I shouldnt have let him come with me, but I had to be polite, so I gave in. We picked up a wingman apiece and took off.

"we cruised all over the island looking for something to shoot at, but the bombers and strafers have about cleaned the place out. We had just decided to call it off and go home when we spotted a couple of Oscars just ahead of us, near Pamubulon Island, flying low just over the treetops. There were on my side and I figured mabey Dick hadnt seen them so I barely whispered over the radio to my wingman to follow me and I dive to take one of the Nips. One nice burst, and down he goes. I turn to knock off the other Oscar but this eavesdropping Bong (motioning to Dick who was now sitting across the tent grinning) had heard me talking to my wingman and had located the Nip. Before I could get in position, I saw him blow up and Bong pulls up alongside of me waggling his wings and grinning at me, like the highway robber he is. That makes him thirty-nine and me thirty-one. Im still eight behind. I bet when this war is over, they'll call me Eight Behind McGuire."


Chris Herman wrote in a letter home:
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"I flew with both 'Macs' {McGuire and Mac Donald} in a couple of fights now and need a new plane.  Both wings were sprung and wrinkled from racking around at excessive speeds and dive recoveries - its one hell of a job to fly with McGuire, and his plane is in the same shape....I'm usually No 3 man in his flight when he takes the Squadron out - expects me to stay for at least three of four passes, or till we get things split up and going our way.  Then he doesn't give a damn what happens, but hates to find himself suddenly all alone down on the deck!"

John Tilley:
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Mac told those under his command never to turn with an enemy fighter in the heavy 38 but he did it anyway with great sucess, particularly at low altitudes and low airspeeds of 90 mph.  Although dogfighting in the Lightning was often played down officially, it was more common than not.  Tilley remembered 'most of our fights with the Japanese started out above 20,000 feet but damned soon everyone was milling around on the deck.  And that lovely Lightning just didn't have any competition at low altitude.  Ive flown the P-51 (liked it very much) and the P-47 (disliked it very much), and Ive engaged in mock dogfights against just about all our WWII fighter planes.  The only one the ole Lockheed Rocking Chair and I had trouble staying behind was a pretty savvy Navy type in an F4f Wildcat.

My checkout flight was on Tom McGuires[15] wing and it was a wild One. I've never worked harder staying on someone's tail. That guy was probably the best fighter pilot I've ever flown with, but he couldn't shake me off his tail – so I was then and there declared "combat qualified." It wasn't till many missions later that I thought I was "combat qualified."

Everything considered, I don't believe our losses were excessive but we did lose too many pilots not due to enemy action. Some of our very best pilots were lost this way. In the final analysis even Tom McGuire killed himself by trying to dogfight without first dropping his almost full belly tanks.

Offline HighGTrn

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Re: Combat Flaps
« Reply #52 on: February 23, 2009, 02:41:47 PM »
Well, it appears that flap usage is much more prevalent in our game than it was in real life.  Interesting because I fly the p38 almost exclusively.  I can tell you that damage to my flaps in a 38 is an automatic trip back to the runway.

If find that I mostly use my flaps when topping out in the vertical.  Be it a loop or a high yo-yo, those flaps really get my nose back around quick.  I also find that in these situations, most of my kills are deflection shots in the engine or cockpit of the bad guy.  I rarely get in the saddle with the 38.  Is this normal?

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