Combat Flaps

[HighGTrn]

Anyone know if the WW2 guys actually used these flaps and if so, how prevalent was it used?  Here in make believe land, using those flaps is just as important as using the throttle or stick in a fight.  I just never hear those old guys talking about it.

S1n1ster

[1pLUs44]

If you watched the Dogfights about the F4U, there's an incident where a -U4 pilot uses one

[uptown]

P51 pilots would come in for landing with full flaps, chopped throttle and 25 manifold pressure.That way if they had bad approach they could hit throttle and wep, pull out and make another attempt. I seen that in a training film for the P51B.Pony pilots would also weave back and forth while taxi because they couldn't see over the nose.In combat the high speed flaps were the bread and butter of the mustang.

[Chalenge]

I dont think anyone in r/l 'hits full power and wep' on a bad approach without also making a bad ending.

[Saxman]

HighG,

I don't think flaps were utilized to the degree--or rather, in the manner--they were used in here.

For one, if you consider that in the historical aircraft the pilot didn't have a nice thumb toggle on his stick or throttle. There was an entirely separate lever for flaps, which under high-G loads would have probably been VERY difficult to reach.

On the other hand, some aircraft like the F4U and F6F had flaps that were operated via a spring. If the pilot exceeded the max speed for a given flap setting the flaps would be blown back up because the spring couldn't hold them down against the airflow. When the aircraft decelerated back below that speed during maneuvers the flaps would drop again. It wasn't uncommon for F4U and F6F pilots to set two notches of flaps for maneuvering and then leave it. "Automatic" flaps without literally being automatic.

Of course, some aircraft like the N1K2-J DID have automatic flaps

[mtnman]

Anyone know if the WW2 guys actually used these flaps and if so, how prevalent was it used?  Here in make believe land, using those flaps is just as important as using the throttle or stick in a fight.  I just never hear those old guys talking about it.

S1n1ster

WWII combat was basically about killing the other guy and making it home.  And it really wasn't about you vs him, and seeing how much we can get an airplane to do.  It was more team-oriented, us vs them, and very un-sportsman-like.  The fights didn't need to be "fair" or "clean" to earn the respect of your teammates.  An "AFK" kill was as honorable as any other...

AHII fights are much more me vs you.  And simply winning isn't always the goal.  In AHII winning on equal terms is much more acceptable than winning for the sake of winning.  I may have won, but if I did it with an altitude advantage and killed you while you were engaged with three other guys it won't be viewed as a great accomplishment.  We're also much more inclined to "see what this plane can do", even if it's far from recommended historical tactics.  

To that end, I believe flaps are relied on infinitely more than they were in true combat, even if they were designed to be used and effective when used.  I would guess we routinely use them more often, and to higher extremes than history would show.  And our "normal" fights are (IMO) far from "normal" compared to history.

Beyond that, we're able to set up our virtual cockpit to be extremely user-friendly, which allows (at least in my experience) far from realistic control in certain situations, again leading to an increased use of flaps (and other aspects beyond just flaps).

For example- looking at cockpit photos of the F4U, I don't believe it would be possible (or at least easy) for me to manipulate throttle and flaps at the same time.  I'd have to take my hand off the throttle to actuate the flaps.  In AHII, I have the flaps mapped to a button on my throttle so I can do both at the same time.

Not only can I do those two things at the same time (which I often do), I can do it under any G-load, looking in any direction, while also dropping gear, jettisoning DT's, switching fuel tanks, and talking to my friends.  I don't even have to concern myself with fuel mixture, mission goals, finding my way home, keeping my wingman safe, etc.  If my wingman dies, it's a bummer, but I don't have to live with it forever.  Simple bodily functions aren't as distracting and limiting as they would be in reality either, and I don't have to suffer a bad nights sleep disturbed by mosquitos and bombs and then try to perform well enough to survive the next days.

Because of these factors (and many more), I believe we're able to "get more" out of our virtual planes than almost any pilot would ever be able to do.  The performance and limits of individual planes may be modeled as close as possible, but the pilots, the pilots duties, and the pilots limits aren't.  Could a real corsair do what I can get mine to do?  Probably, but not with a normal human pilot (IMO at least).

And if we were limited to what real pilots could do, and experienced what they really experienced, we might lose interest in playing, hehe.

[B4Buster]

There's a story about Tommy McGuire (P-38 pilot) who got in a tight situation during an engagement. (I read this in a book by Caidin, he sometimes stretches the truth, so I'm not sure how true it is)


McGuire was on an escort mission to Manila. He saw 6 zeros attacking a straggling B-24 and came in. The zekes broke off the 24 and went after him. He flamed one right off. One zeke broke, which left McGuire with 4 zekes on him. McGuire went to dive away, but 2 zekes knew what he was doing (the 4 zekes were experienced pilots) and the dove early to catch him in a crossfire between them and the 2 higher zekes. McGuire saw them setting him up; so he put out the flaps and whipped the 38 right around, taking out an unexpecting zeke pilot, and another zeke broke off. He then retracted flaps and put the 38 into a steep dive and got the hell out of there.

There's a good example, I'd say it's completely possible that McGuire did this to fool the zekes, the last thing they were expecting was the 38 to put his flaps down and start mixing it up with them  

edit: read the book quite a while ago, so every detail might not be perfect but I do remember there being 6 zekes

[avionix]

Bud Anderson talked about a fight he had with a 109 where he used his first notch of flaps(10 degrees) in a dogfight to gain a better turning radius.  Other than that, I have not heard of it much.

[uptown]

I dont think anyone in r/l 'hits full power and wep' on a bad approach without also making a bad ending.

http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/P-51.html Yes I was wrong on that. What this film says at the 25 minute mark is that they set rpms at 2500 to be able to apply enough power in case of a bad landing and not over-rev the engine.

[Vulcan]

Bud Anderson talked about a fight he had with a 109 where he used his first notch of flaps(10 degrees) in a dogfight to gain a better turning radius.  Other than that, I have not heard of it much.

I remember one 109 pilot saying he used flaps a lot in an interview somewhere, I was quite surprised.

[shreck]

There's a story about Tommy McGuire (P-38 pilot) who got in a tight situation during an engagement. (I read this in a book by Caidin, he sometimes stretches the truth, so I'm not sure how true it is)


McGuire was on an escort mission to Manila. He saw 6 zeros attacking a straggling B-24 and came in. The zekes broke off the 24 and went after him. He flamed one right off. One zeke broke, which left McGuire with 4 zekes on him. McGuire went to dive away, but 2 zekes knew what he was doing (the 4 zekes were experienced pilots) and the dove early to catch him in a crossfire between them and the 2 higher zekes. McGuire saw them setting him up; so he put out the flaps and whipped the 38 right around, taking out an unexpecting zeke pilot, and another zeke broke off. He then retracted flaps and put the 38 into a steep dive and got the hell out of there.

There's a good example, I'd say it's completely possible that McGuire did this to fool the zekes, the last thing they were expecting was the 38 to put his flaps down and start mixing it up with them  

edit: read the book quite a while ago, so every detail might not be perfect but I do remember there being 6 zekes

He also snap rolled and died later on in the war using the same tactic 

[Chalenge]

Concerning combat flaps I have one question that bothers me (okay 2) ... If you are in a nose high turn and you drop ten degrees flaps why does the airplane begin to snaproll? and what is that shake of the airframe about? It doesnt seem realistic.

[shreck]

Concerning combat flaps I have one question that bothers me (okay 2) ... If you are in a nose high turn and you drop ten degrees flaps why does the airplane begin to snaproll? and what is that shake of the airframe about? It doesnt seem realistic.

approaching stall, and engine torque starts to take over. The shaking is very realistic!!

[Chalenge]

Stall speed doesnt go down with flaps? Come to think of it the P51 flaps down braking action seems too severe which is why I try not to use them.

[PiratPX]

Using Mustang mkIII's flaps in combat as told by one of the 315th sqdn pilots:

For 360 degree circle or more there was stalemate. I lowered flaps 10 degrees and was gaining on him. My solar plexus stopped churning as I felt sure of getting on his tail, all the time thinking: "Pull smoothly. Get that extra reserve throttle on".
(...)
When engaging the enemy low, over ground or sea, there was only one maneuver at the fighter pilot's disposal, an ideally constructed tight turn. When Mustang's speed dropped to 220-240 mph, by lowering 10 degrees of flaps the pilot could get on to his opponent's tail in no time. At a safe height, "Mysz" as he was affectionately known, and I, by altering the configuration of the Mustangs, proved it really worked.
There was considerable danger though. The Mustang was a great but unforgiving machine. When flaps were down, if pulled crudely, and at an even lower speed, say 200, it could stall. When told about our experiment, Horbaczewski would not have it. He told us not to discuss it with the other pilots, saying: "Flaps or no flaps, I don't want to see my pilots falling from the skies"

Quoted from here: http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/cwynar/cwynar.htm