Author Topic: Disable F3 view  (Read 4231 times)

Offline Widewing

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Re: Disable F3 view
« Reply #120 on: February 22, 2009, 10:30:44 AM »
Don't forget that F3 also has offensive uses in attack aircraft: it is nearly impossible to hide a tank from an Il-2 or A-20, because not only do you have an icon over your head, but they also have the God's eye view to visually inspect 360 degrees around them in a matter of a second.

Remember that the aircraft obscures your view when in F3 mode to some degree. GVs are as easily found in a fighter as in an IL-2 or A-20. Simply bank over and gently spiral down until within icon range. What I prefer about the A-20 is its load of eight 500 lb bombs, as opposed to 1, 2 or 3 (P-47s) on fighters. Moreover, what is significantly different about the B-25H? Less maneuverable, but the same general criteria applies.


My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

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Offline Tilt

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Re: Disable F3 view
« Reply #121 on: February 22, 2009, 11:29:44 AM »
................................or a second set of eyes able to watch the rear at all times. 

Valid point for the Me110, Mossie and A20G............

Note that these are basically attack ac in their primary roles

other (primary role) attack ac

IL2m3, Ju87, Val, SBD...........

I continue to feel that a pure attack class with a different set of F3/F6/Formation rules would resolve inconsistancies in this area.

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Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: Disable F3 view
« Reply #122 on: February 22, 2009, 12:47:28 PM »
What about the fact that you absolutely cannot see anything behind you in an Il2?

Il2 "highly maneuverable"?  :rofl The best you can say about the Il2's maneuver capacity is that it has a tighter turn radius than some high-wing loaded fighters. Which none-the-less will easily E fight the Il2 to death, if we were talking about fights occurring between two individuals in a vacuum. What lets the Il2 somewhat survive under hostile fighters is that it is hard to kill with one firing pass and fighters simply do not want to spend the time and E to mess around with a dodging Il2 on the deck when there are actual enemy fighters in the air, upping, or potentially coming from one base over.

The fact that the pilot can barely see out the rear window is the downside of being so well armored.  That is the design of the aircraft.  As it is, the IL-2 is far more armored at least around the pilot as compared to the Bf110, Mossie, all fighters, AND has the far superior 360d F3 view.  The IL-2 doesnt need F3 to find gv's.

I may have mistated my point about the IL-2 being maneuverable, but you did hit the nail on the head.  It can turn quite tight at all speeds, but if the attack enemy fighter is paying attention he can simple accel, climb, and out "E" the IL-2 to death.  No arguement from me.  The point is that the IL-2 not helpless vs fighters defensively, it can jink and perform some funky menouvers just as well as a fighter.   
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Offline Widewing

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Re: Disable F3 view
« Reply #123 on: February 22, 2009, 01:06:52 PM »
Valid point for the Me110, Mossie and A20G............

Note that these are basically attack ac in their primary roles

other (primary role) attack ac

IL2m3, Ju87, Val, SBD...........

I continue to feel that a pure attack class with a different set of F3/F6/Formation rules would resolve inconsistancies in this area.

The difference is; the Bf 110 and Mossie are primarily fighters, and have adequate view to the rear. Their roles (in the incarnations seen in AH2) are as fighters. Certainly both offer better rear views than the F6F and P-39s. Attack is a secondary role for fighters.

Attack aircraft are certainly different, and their primary mission is not air to air combat. Look at the B-25s. You can select the H or a C model with solid nose. You can take a glass nosed B-25C or a Boston. How could your hope to differentiate between those when it comes to F3? Both are effective in ground attack.

What I do not yet understand is; what is driving this crusade? Who cares if an SBD or IL-2 pilot can use F3? They are still extremely vulnerable aircraft, lacking speed and vertical performance. This entire discussion resembles the whines about handicapped parking spaces.


My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline E25280

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Re: Disable F3 view
« Reply #124 on: February 22, 2009, 02:08:34 PM »
Then PLEASE either link those threads (I did the multitudes of searches and found nada) OR go ahead and recite what you can about what and why HTC and Co. decided to give the IL-2 the ability to have F3 and the ability to be scored as a bomber when it is an attack aircraft in the purest of forms???
You keep saying this.  Do you not understand that the attack role is a bomber role?  That you can sometimes use fighter aircraft in a bomber role (all you jug fans) and vice versa (all you P-38 fans  ;)) does not erase the fact that aircraft specifically designed to hit ground targets (as the IL-2 was) are employing a bomber function.
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Offline cobia38

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Re: Disable F3 view
« Reply #125 on: February 22, 2009, 04:15:52 PM »
 i think any plane with fixed forward firing guns should have a "fighter" option,and f3 disabled when flying it when in "fighter" mode  :pray  :pray  :pray


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Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: Disable F3 view
« Reply #126 on: February 22, 2009, 05:00:38 PM »
The difference is; the Bf 110 and Mossie are primarily fighters, and have adequate view to the rear. Their roles (in the incarnations seen in AH2) are as fighters. Certainly both offer better rear views than the F6F and P-39s. Attack is a secondary role for fighters.

Attack aircraft are certainly different, and their primary mission is not air to air combat. Look at the B-25s. You can select the H or a C model with solid nose. You can take a glass nosed B-25C or a Boston. How could your hope to differentiate between those when it comes to F3? Both are effective in ground attack.

What I do not yet understand is; what is driving this crusade? Who cares if an SBD or IL-2 pilot can use F3? They are still extremely vulnerable aircraft, lacking speed and vertical performance. This entire discussion resembles the whines about handicapped parking spaces.


My regards,

Widewing

The Mossie and Bf110x serve more time against other aircraft than they do vs ground targets???  I am not sure of the ratio but I am willing to bet that the number of times that a Bf110 and a Mossie are taken into the air as an air to ground attack vs an air to air fighter is at minimum 10 to 1 in favor of attack role.  They serve far more to level buildings/OBJ or take out gv's than they do to take out enemy aircraft.

Again... it seems to me Windwing that the view you're taking is to bend the perameters per individual planes vs having a set of guidlines applied universally based on commonality without regard to aircraft performance.  If the aircaft didnt have the ability to view below via a turret or low-rear gunner in the real deal then why does it receive that luxury in this sim?  That is what "active/defensive piloting", wingmen, and escorts are for.   

I have yet to hear WHY the IL-2 is different than the other aircraft that have the rear gunner and no F3 view other than A> It was classified as a bomber from the onset (imo, is as incorrect as it is inconsistant), B> the pilot really cant see to the rear worth a hoot (bad rear view = very good pilot protection), and C> change/updating is bad.  Really, those three are it.

This isnt my crusade, I've just jumped on the badwagon.  I've always wondered as to why the IL-2 received a choice to score as a bomber/attack vs fighter/attack.  By definition, at least according to the RAF, a "bombing mission" is for area effect and a "strike mission" (see AH2 "attack") is for specific target engagement.  I'd be willing to bet the IL-2 performed as it was deisgned: vs gv's and static defenses (direct attack) and not as a level carpet bomber (no level bombsight).  I guess I can ask the same question to you: Why are you defending it so dearly?  Do you not agree that it is no different in how it performs vs true bombers and vs other ground attack aircraft (actually, it has advantages in armor and firepower vs other attack aircarft)?  Just curious.   :)       
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Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: Disable F3 view
« Reply #127 on: February 22, 2009, 05:26:08 PM »
You keep saying this.  Do you not understand that the attack role is a bomber role?  That you can sometimes use fighter aircraft in a bomber role (all you jug fans) and vice versa (all you P-38 fans  ;)) does not erase the fact that aircraft specifically designed to hit ground targets (as the IL-2 was) are employing a bomber function.


I meant for the ending part of my previous thread for you: regarding the bomber/attack/fighter roles.  I'll state them here again.  According to RAF doctrine (yeah, the IL-2 is a Soviet plane but the practice is universal), the term "bombing  mission" was defined as an "area effect" while "strike missions" (the AH2 attack role) were meant for target specific with precision in mind.  I believe that it is safe to say that the IL-2 didnt fly over spawling industrial complexes and carpet bomb in level fashion.   ;)  The IL-2 went after individual gv's and static defensive positions.

The A20 and the IL-2 are the only aircraft that are afforded the ability to be scored bomber or attack and not have a level bomb sight.  Which, I may add that the ability to score as a "bomber" should have no bearing on an aircrafts ability to use the F3 view.  If HTC really thinks the IL-2 is a level bomber then so be it, but that aircraft in WWII did not have the ability to see below it as it does in AH2 via the F3 view.  It didnt fly in true and unbreakable bombing formations like the B17's, etc, and it was able to menouver defensively so the need for it to have the F3 view is moot.  But... HTC gave it that capability so long ago and it shall probably stick for who knows what reason.  *shrugs* 

Myself and others have made our points time and time again... and imo very well thought out arguements have been made to modify the use of the F3 view in AH2 (especially in the case of the IL-2).  Not only are there inconsistancies in the application of the F3 ability, the reasoning at least thus far as been unsatisfying as to why it is the way it is, at least for me.

**washes hands and walks away**
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Offline Widewing

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Re: Disable F3 view
« Reply #128 on: February 22, 2009, 07:11:39 PM »
Why are you defending it so dearly?  Do you not agree that it is no different in how it performs vs true bombers and vs other ground attack aircraft (actually, it has advantages in armor and firepower vs other attack aircarft)?  Just curious.   :)       

Why? Simple. You are asking a portion of the game population to take a hit to their game play simply because you don't like F3 in certain aircraft. You guys are simply being selfish, "I want it my way!"

Having an opinion does not equate to being right. Indeed, I have yet to see an argument that supports the contentions voiced. Clearly, you haven't figured out that the IL-2 was classified as a light bomber by the Soviets and later by the western Allies. The US Army divided its classes as Heavy Bombers, Medium Bombers and Light/Attack Bombers. All were still classified as "bombers" and still are. Today the USAF defines the A-20 as the "A-20 attack bomber". Note the term "bomber". Clearly, you don't understand what a bomber is. The USAAF defined a "bomber" as any aircraft whose "primary purpose is to place bombs or other ordnance on the enemy's war making assets" (General H. Arnold, June 1943). You seem to want to define an entire new class of WWII aircraft because it fits your opinion. The reality is, there is no such thing as a "true bomber". If the goal is to stick to historical precedent, level bomb sights are not a basis for classification as a bomber. The definition provided by the USAAF should be sufficient for classification.

To cut to the chase, your argument is without merit because your classification is flawed.


My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

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Offline Karnak

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Re: Disable F3 view
« Reply #129 on: February 22, 2009, 07:42:32 PM »
The Mossie and Bf110x serve more time against other aircraft than they do vs ground targets???  I am not sure of the ratio but I am willing to bet that the number of times that a Bf110 and a Mossie are taken into the air as an air to ground attack vs an air to air fighter is at minimum 10 to 1 in favor of attack role.  They serve far more to level buildings/OBJ or take out gv's than they do to take out enemy aircraft.
I doubt it is 10 to 1.  Maybe for the Bf110 due to the Bf110G-2's use in low alt sneak raids, but when I was playing I certainly saw quite a few in the air-to-air role.  While I may have taken bombs or rockets on my Mossie on occasion, the vast majority of the time I lifted it for pure air-to-air and I saw quite a few other Mossies used that way as well.
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Offline Tilt

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Re: Disable F3 view
« Reply #130 on: February 23, 2009, 05:01:29 AM »
The difference is; the Bf 110 and Mossie are primarily fighters, and have adequate view to the rear. Their roles (in the incarnations seen in AH2) are as fighters. Certainly both offer better rear views than the F6F and P-39s. Attack is a secondary role for fighters.

Attack aircraft are certainly different, and their primary mission is not air to air combat. Look at the B-25s. You can select the H or a C model with solid nose. You can take a glass nosed B-25C or a Boston. How could your hope to differentiate between those when it comes to F3? Both are effective in ground attack.

What I do not yet understand is; what is driving this crusade? Who cares if an SBD or IL-2 pilot can use F3? They are still extremely vulnerable aircraft, lacking speed and vertical performance. This entire discussion resembles the whines about handicapped parking spaces.

Well firstly I have to confess that my view re the creation of proper attack classification, perks and use of the same within AH extends to an area greater than just the discussion regarding the inappropriate use of F3..........

IMO the AH Mossie/110G are primarily  attack ac whilst they are also  able to perform some fighter/interceptor functions. Yes I have seeen them perform very adequately as fighters in the hands of some.

One of your points above poses the question of how we would differentiate between a bomber such as the B-25C or the Boston or the same ac when used in an attack role. Internationally the definition is blurred but actually with AH's game play role it can be more clearly defined in ways that would even out inconsistancies in game play.

My view would be that when chosen as Bomber its method of use is defined by enforced access to the F6 view for bomb release and access to the F3 view for defensive SA. Equally when chosen as a Bomber formations are enabled. The limited manouverability caused by formations IMO requires greater SA, and F3 is not an offensive view from this point as its clear that when in it bombs cannot be released (only in F6).

Actually the game play "win" here is the reduction of the effectiveness of low level ground/ship attacking formations (whether in suicide mode or not) releasing from the F3 view point. This stuff can of course be attempted  from the F6 view but stuff can be put inplace to make rapid switching to F6 without calibration somewhat ineffective.

When choosing attack these attacker/bombers can be used differently. F6 is indeed dissabled, as would be F3 and bombs could only be released from the F1 pilot view. Pure Attack ac would be similarly configured as are fighter/attackers any way. So any aircraft in attack mode (whether it be Fighter/attacker, attacker or bomber attacker) would have no access to formations, f3 or f6 and require bomb release from the pilots position.

The game play win here is the ability to use such attacker/bombers in their attack role (dive bombing {single} Ju88's, B25's etc)whilst also not making fighters out of aircraft which historically had poor SA (Il2M3)  via F3.

It then goes one step further when used in conjunction with an attack perk classification and a place in AH where certain ordinance is perked. Fighter pilots would not pay (place deposits on) heavy ordinance with fighter perks they would use attack perks.........the 37mm cannon on the Il2 would be paid for with attack perks not bomber perks (same for the mortar on the B25).

Attack is a confused classification within AH. A fighter in Attack mode wins perks differently and scores points differently yet has no attack perks to play with. Actually (and presently) the point would be that there is nothing to spend attack perks on. We could say much the same for bombers (ignoring the 234).

As I see this F3 discussion it would be a component of a general "clear up" which would only really work well in conjunction with other stuff however I do believe the net result would be benefisial to game play
« Last Edit: February 23, 2009, 05:05:34 AM by Tilt »
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Offline Widewing

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Re: Disable F3 view
« Reply #131 on: February 23, 2009, 06:51:31 PM »
My thoughts on bombers have been, and remain as follows:

Heavy Bombers: Bomb release from F6 only.
Medium Bombers: Bomb release from F6 or F1.
Attack bombers: Bomb release from F1 only.

This will generally cure the issues related to dive bombing Heavies, while allowing for release from F1 only for attack bombers. No bomber can release bombs from F3.

Any Bomber with fixed forward guns: No firing from F3 view. My reasoning for this is that hitting with deflection shots from F3 is easy to learn.

This restricts the functional use of F3, limiting it to simulating the multiple crew members visual input as intended.


My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

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Offline E25280

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Re: Disable F3 view
« Reply #132 on: February 23, 2009, 07:35:43 PM »
I meant for the ending part of my previous thread for you: regarding the bomber/attack/fighter roles.  I'll state them here again.  According to RAF doctrine (yeah, the IL-2 is a Soviet plane but the practice is universal), the term "bombing  mission" was defined as an "area effect" while "strike missions" (the AH2 attack role) were meant for target specific with precision in mind.  I believe that it is safe to say that the IL-2 didnt fly over spawling industrial complexes and carpet bomb in level fashion.   ;)  The IL-2 went after individual gv's and static defensive positions.

You are confusing mission with the aircraft that perform them.  Unless you are claiming bombers did not perform strike missions? 

The A20 and the IL-2 are the only aircraft that are afforded the ability to be scored bomber or attack and not have a level bomb sight.
I am sure this statement is a surprise for anyone who has ever flown a D3A, SBD, or B-25H.

Myself and others have made our points time and time again... and imo very well thought out arguements have been made to modify the use of the F3 view in AH2 (especially in the case of the IL-2).<<===There is that true nature of the complaint breaking through again.  Not only are there inconsistancies in the application of the F3 ability, the reasoning at least thus far as been unsatisfying as to why it is the way it is, at least for me.
I still do not see any inconsistencies, and the reason they are not inconsistent has been explained several times -- it just seems like you are unwilling to accept the reasoning.

The mossie version we have is a fighter/interceptor.
The 110 was always a fighter first.
The IL-2 was a bomber.
The A-20 was a bomber.

The above are true regardless of how they are used in the game.  That HTC is trying to keep the Fighter vs. Bomber categories somewhat historically relevant is a good thing IMO.
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Offline xStrato

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Re: Disable F3 view
« Reply #133 on: February 23, 2009, 11:57:32 PM »
 :aok I also like this idea.

Offline Plawranc

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Re: Disable F3 view
« Reply #134 on: February 24, 2009, 12:53:58 AM »


I like this idea, or another approach could be to allow F3 mode for only planes with more than 3 gun positions including pilot position!

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