Naval versions of Bf109 and Stuka?

[Fishu]

A long time ago when there was a game called Great Naval Battles', there were also one german CV which could been loaded up with 109's and stukas.
I wonder what models were they?

I can only guess that there weren't too many of those.

[LLv34_Snefens]

I hardly know anything about them, but their designation was 109T-1, based on an E-model I think, and the Ju-87C-1, based on the B-model.

[HABICHT]

both, the 109t and the ju87 won't fit into
the current planeset of 44-45 planes (RAF'42-43).

btw, the first b17 dowend in europ was shoot
down by a 109T :-). funny or?

habicht

[-lazs-]

The 109T would be great even tho it never saw combat.   A 109E with 1,000 extra pounds of tail hook, folding wing mechanisms and strengthened airframe would be a great addition to the planeset.  
lazs

[M.C.202]

Would Germany get a flattop before or after the Italians? The Italian carrer was much closer to being finished.
Also would the F8F and F7F be allowed to fly against them :-)

------------------
M.C.202
Dino in Reno

[Nath-BDP]

The 109T (Traeger/carrier) was based upon the Emil, the major external difference being the T's increased wing span and the provision of catapult points and an arrestor hook.

In Mid-1941 when it was realized that the Graf Zepplin was never to be completed all of the Bf109T's were de-navilised and sent to various LW units, most went to I./JG 77 in southern Norway. I./JG 77 was later incorporated into JG 5.

Excerpt from "Bf 109F/G/K Aces of the Western Front", Osprey.

 

Shortly after midday on 8 September 1941, six Bf 109T of one such Staffel (the Jagdgruppe Stavanger), were scrambled in response to a report of approaching enemy aircraft. Lieutenant Alfred Jakobi and his wingman, Lieutenant Steinicke, headed southwards, and soon the former could see a pair of condensation trails high over the open water, drawing west to east. The two fighters climbed towards them on an intercept course. When they were at an altitude of 28,000 ft, the tell-tale trails, now over land, suddenly ceased. Then Jakobi spotted a black speck against the milky haze of the horizon, and it took him all of 12 minutes to overhaul it. From a distance of 400m, Jakobi was finally able to get a good look at his foe, which, he thought, could only be a Boeing Fortress!

    The time Jakobi had spent studying the recognition manuals had obviously not been wasted, for his opponent was indeed a Fortress I AN525/WP-D of No 90 Sqn--the only RAF bomber squadron to be equipped with the four-engined Boeing--had lifted off from Kinloss, in Scotland, in the company of three others to attack the Panzerschiff (pocket-battleship) Admiral Scheer in Oslo harbor.

   As the two fighters closed in from astern, Jakobi on a level with the Fortress and Steinicke slightly below, the bomber's venteral gunner opened up. The Bf 109s returned fire, Jakobi scoring cannon hits on the starboard side of the Boeing's rear fuselage;


   'The enemy was fishtailing in order to give his aft (i.e. beam) gunners a good field of fire. Because of my excess of speed, I came up alongside the enemy aircraft and could see a large hole in the rear third of the fuselage as well as flames coming from the upper part of the rudder.'...


...

Genralleutnant Wilhelm Harmjanz, GOC Luftgau Nowegen;
'On 8.9.1941 Leutnant Jakobi and Unteroffizier Woite each shot down a Boeing, 75km north of Kristiansund and 50 km south-west of Stavanger respectivly. Please convey to those named my appreciation and heariest congratulations.'
...

The Bf 109T's operational career lasted a good two years longer than Jakobi's, the type remaining in frontline service over the North Sea region well into 1944, latterly with the Jagdstaffel Helgoland (11./JG 11). Surviving examples then saw out their days in training establishments.

   This was in stark contrast to Jakobi's victim. 'D-Dog's' service life with No 90 Sqn had spanned a scant three weeks. But her demise at the end of that brief period has assured her of a toehold in aviation history as the very first of nearly 5000 Flying Fortresses to be lost in the battle during World War 2.

[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 12-27-2000).]

[funked]

Seafire II doesn't fit into 1944/45 either, but we have it.  Why?  It was easy to model and it gives the RAF types something to fly off the CV.

Bf 109T and Ju 87C would be great. We already have a bunch of 109's so the 109T conversion should be easy.  And when we get a Stuka (inevitable I think) then the Ju 87C would also be an easy spin-off.

They were real planes that fought in WW2.  We have a carrier they can use so why not let them use it?

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 12-27-2000).]

[M.C.202]

Funked said:

> They were real planes that fought in WW2. We have a carrier they can use so why not let
> them use it?

The planes? Sure, if the numbers are say 150+ used.
The carrier? N. F. W.
More P-51K's, F7F's, F8F's, and A-Bombs saw action than German Flat-tops.
If you want an AXIS flat-top, use the Aquila, at least she almost was seaworthy. Live with the fact that if you want to fly from a
carrier, you will have U.S., Brit, and the IJN to pick from.
Does "historical combat use" only stop allied equipment from game use? Heck, where are the B-29's?


------------------
M.C.202
Dino in Reno

[funked]

The carriers in AH have no nationality.  We've got US and IJNAF and RN FAA planes operating side by side.  Why not add some German planes that saw combat and were designed to operate from a carrier?

[Kirin]

Jawohl, give us LWs something to fly off the carriers...  and don't come with numbers now: tens of thousends 109s vs. 200 or so CHogs; what u see in MA? OK!? Now bring on the 109T (would love to see the Emil anyway - 1944/45 or not!!) and the Stuka (flying together as pilot and gunner is helluva fun; Stuka would make it possible for LW only squads - ok, Ju88 I know but...)

[brady]

  Instead of asking for German aircraft that did not see any usage from an aircraft carrier why not ask for a seaplane tender to launch sea planes from, or to launch them from ports, or the cruiser....

      Brady

------------------
 

[M.C.202]

Funked said:
> The carriers in AH have no nationality. We've got US and IJNAF and RN FAA planes
> operating side by side. Why not add some German planes that saw combat and were designed to operate from a carrier?

And Kirin said:
> Jawohl, give us LWs something to fly off the carriers... and don't come with numbers now:
> tens of thousends 109s vs. 200 or so CHogs;
what u see in MA? OK!? Now bring on the 109T
> (would love to see the Emil anyway - 1944/45 or not!!) and the Stuka (flying together as
> pilot and gunner is helluva fun; Stuka would make it possible for LW only squads - ok, Ju88 I know but...)

How far from history do you want to go?
Allow Allied aircraft built in large numbers but that did not see combat in the game?
Things like the F7F, F8F, P-51K, or aircraft that did see combat like the Spit XIV and B-29?
The carrier itself is a weapons system, the aircraft are part of it, like the cannon in a fighter.
Would you allow gun swapping?
As to the question of numbers, less than 200/300 built and delivered, no plane. You could get me to go along on a "CHOG" as a "perk" pick aircraft.
As to the side by side use of Axis and Allied aircraft, only for Italy and Finnland :-)
Just because one bad mistake is part of the game, do not expect me to like two. :-)

------------------
M.C.202
Dino in Reno

[This message has been edited by M.C.202 (edited 12-28-2000).]

[Mattibaby80]

I thought I read somewhere that the catapults from the Graf Zepplin were taken off to finish the Italian carrier, but I could be wrong.

------------------
Meine schwester hat keine kartoffel salat?  Du bist eine lustige bube!!

[Fishu]

 

Originally posted by M.C.202:
How far from history do you want to go?
Allow Allied aircraft built in large numbers but that did not see combat in the game?
Things like the F7F, F8F, P-51K, or aircraft that did see combat like the Spit XIV and B-29?
The carrier itself is a weapons system, the aircraft are part of it, like the cannon in a fighter.
Would you allow gun swapping?
As to the question of numbers, less than 200/300 built and delivered, no plane. You could get me to go along on a "CHOG" as a "perk" pick aircraft.
As to the side by side use of Axis and Allied aircraft, only for Italy and Finnland :-)
Just because one bad mistake is part of the game, do not expect me to like two. :-)

I am sure that if there would be Stuka or 109 naval versions added, those would be hardly noticed compared to C hogs... (well, of course they would be noticed as nice target)

What a nice snowball anyway
Now we're already talking about having them in the game  

[Jochen]

During the late 1930s, the aircraft carrier was a serious part of German naval planning. In February 1939, Admiral Erich Raeder proposed that two aircraft carriers (named Graf Zeppelin and Peter Strasser) be laid down. These carriers were to be equipped with specialized carrier-based versions of the Bf-109E fighter and the Junkers Ju 87B dive-bomber. Construction on the first German aircraft carrier, the Graf Zeppelin, was initiated immediately.

Messerschmitt's proposal for a shipboard fighter was designated Bf 109T (T for "Trager"). It was basically a Bf 109E-1 with a larger wing, an attachment point for catapult points underneath the fuselage, and an arrester hook underneath the aft fuselage. A breakpoint was incorporated in the wing spar outboard of the gun bays to permit manual folding of the wings. However, the wing folding process was complicated by the need to detach the flaps prior to folding. The landing gear still retracted outwards, but the undercarriage legs were made stronger in order to accommodate the faster sink rates involved in carrier landings. Armament was to consist of two fuselage-mounted 7.9-mm MG 17 machine guns and either two MG-17 machine guns or two 20-mm MG-FF cannon in the wings. The engine was the Daimler Benz DB 601A.

Since the Messerschmitt A.G. was fully occupied with Bf 109 and Bf 110 production, responsibility for the Bf 109T project was assigned to the Fieseler Werke. Ten Bf 109E-1s were to be converted to Bf 109T-0 configuration for service test, and 60 Bf 109T-1 fighters were to be built from scratch. The Bf 109T-0s were ready for evaluation during the winter of 1939-40.

When the war in Europe began, the Graf Zeppelin was about 85 percent complete, and most of her machinery had been installed. However, work on the Graf Zeppelin was suspended in October 1939 due to a change in German naval thinking. It was deemed that the operation of a single aircraft carrier within range of enemy land bases was impractical, and all work on the Graf Zeppelin was halted in May of 1940. Assembly of the 60 Bf 109T-1 fighters was also halted at the same time.

However, the successes of British carrier-based aircraft against the Italian Navy late in 1940 rekindled German interest in ships of this type, and the Fieseler Werke was instructed to complete the 60 Bf 109T-1s then under construction but to remove the naval equipment and deliver them as land-based fighter bombers suitable for operation from short strips.

Stripped of naval equipment and fitted with a rack for a 66 Imp gal drop tank, 4 110-lb bombs, or a single 551-lb bomb, the planes were redesignated Bf 109T-2. It was concluded that the Bf 109T-2 would be ideal for operation from small, exposed airstrips such as those from which the Jagdflieger were forced to operate in Norway. Several units operated with the Bf 109T-2 in Norway. However, it never operated in its intended shipboard role. The short-field performance of the Bf 109T lead to surviving Norwegian-based Bf 109T-2s to be based on the tiny fortified island of Heligoland in 1943. The last of the Bf 109T-2s disappeared from the inventory at the end of 1944.

------------------
jochen

Kids today! Why can't they fetishize Fascist military hardware like normal people?

Ladysmith wants you forthwith to come to her relief
Burn your briefs you leave for France tonight
Carefully cut the straps of the booby-traps and set the captives free
But don't shoot 'til you see her big blue eyes