Author Topic: Navy Ships Types.... Please Help!!!  (Read 1111 times)

Offline Replicant

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Navy Ships Types.... Please Help!!!
« on: December 27, 2000, 06:15:00 AM »
Hi all

I know roughly what the difference between ships are but can someone please put all these in order (and add some if some are missing).  I often get confused when some describe a ship as Heavycruiser, Battlecruiser, Battleship etc.

So, can someone define all of these please:-

Corvette, Frigate, Cruiser, Heavy Cruiser, Battlecruiser, Dreadnought, Battleship etc.  Please add more to the list!  

Many thanks

Nexx
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Offline Torgo

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Navy Ships Types.... Please Help!!!
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2000, 12:28:00 PM »
Well, over time, definitions mutated a lot....

From WWI to WWII, this generally summarizes some of your list:

Battleship:  Guns 11" or larger, (normally 8-12 of said guns) typically, 25,000 tons or more, heavy armor. WWI ships had top speeds about 18-20 kts. WWII-designed battleships were about 28 kts or more.

"Dreadnought" essentially = battleship. However, usage of the term died out after WWI. Prior to the launching of HMS Dreadnought in (1906 I believe?) Battleships had, typically, 4x11" or 4x12"guns, and a mixed assortment of medium and smaller guns, and were painfully slow. The Dreadnought was a radical break, and after that Battleships had 8 or more 11-12" guns, dispensed with the mish-mash of medium guns, and were much faster. Ships similar to Dreadnought were called "Dreadnought-Battleships" to differentiate them from the old pre-1906 Battleships. After WWI, all the old "pre-dreadnoughts" were gone and it really wasn't necessary to use the Dreadnought term.

Battlecruiser:  Same as a Battleship, (often they were even larger) but very light armor, and much faster speed. But shown to be too fragile in WWI. In WWI, the battlecruisers had the 25-30 kt. speed. By WWII, new battleships had heavy armor and were just as fast as the WWI battlecruisers rendering the battlecruisers obsolete.

BCs had an unfortunate tendency to blow up the first time they took hits. After WWI I believe only one was built (Hood) and all the rest under construction were either scrapped or turned into Carriers (Kaga, Lexington, etc.)

Heavy Cruiser:  8 inch guns, 10,000-15,000 tons. Light armor. May or may not have torpedoes depending on the country.

Light Cruiser: 6 inch or smaller guns, 7,000-15,000 tons. Light Armor. May or may not have torpedoes depending on the country.

Destroyer: Smaller than 6 inch guns, size varies wildly, essentially no armor at all. All had torpedoes of some kind.

Once you start getting into Destroyer Escorts, Corvettes, Frigates, things get awfully confusing and messy. All were ships usually used for convoy escort, and generally were smaller, much slower versions of Destroyers.

Of course, there are some odd exceptions, like the German "pocket battleships" (the size of a heavy cruiser, but some armor, and 4 x 11" guns), the USS Alaska and Guam, etc. that are hard to categorize.

Despite what you hear in the radio channels, AH has nothing bigger than a Heavy Cruiser. That's not a "battleship." It's an American heavy cruiser, 8" guns, no torpedoes (Americans didn't put torps on their cruisers.

Offline Tony Williams

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Navy Ships Types.... Please Help!!!
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2000, 02:52:00 PM »
After WW1 the categories of ship were determined by the Washington Naval Treaty of 1921/2.  This put a limit on the number/total displacement of various ship types as follows:

Battleships: up to 35,000 tons, guns 14" for new designs (with a get-out clause for up to 16").

Cruisers up to 10,000 tons and 8" guns

Destroyers up to 1,500 tons.

There were also limits on submarines and aircraft carriers.

The RN and USN were rated equal, other nations proportionally less.  Many nations cheated (especially the Germans and Japanese) and built ships well over the design limits.

Corvettes and sloops were mainly anti-sub or AA escorts, smaller and slower than destroyers.  Frigate was not (IIRC) a term used in WW2 but was introduced by the USN to mean a light cruiser type vessel significantly larger than a destroyer.  This was a reasonable parallel with its original use in the sailing navy of 18th-19th century.

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Offline Karnak

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Navy Ships Types.... Please Help!!!
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2000, 03:18:00 PM »
Tony,

The Washington Naval Treaty was only between the  United States, United Kingdom and Japan.  It limited guns to 16".

When the treaty came up for renewal in 1936 the UK wanted to reduce the gun size to 14" (incorrectly anticipating success on this measure they had already decided to go with 14" guns on the new King George V class) due to the poor financial state that they were in.  The Japanese (already planning the Yamato class) wanted to set the limit at the effective non-limit of 18".  Because the Japanese could not get the limit upped/removed they did not sign the 1936, 14" version of the Treaty.  Because one of the three signers refused to sign, the treaty did not bind the US or UK either.  The UK decided to complete the King George V class and the US designed the 16" armed Dakotas.

While Germany was not bound by the Washington Naval Treaty, they were bound by the Armistice agreement that ended WWI.  That agreement forbade Germany from possessing any warships larger than heavy cruisers.  The Germans did break this.

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Offline -duma-

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Navy Ships Types.... Please Help!!!
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2000, 05:28:00 PM »
The Dreadnought is by far and away the best name of any ship ever. Admit it.  

Offline Tony Williams

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Navy Ships Types.... Please Help!!!
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2000, 12:54:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Tony Williams:
After WW1 the categories of ship were determined by the Washington Naval Treaty of 1921/2.  This put a limit on the number/total displacement of various ship types as follows:

Yes, I know - I was oversimplifying a bit (I actually have copies of the various interwar naval treaties somewhere in my files).  It was even more complicated than you imply, however, because the French, Italians and Germans were all involved in treaty restrictions of one sort or another.

The Japanese never actually pitched for 18" - they kept very quiet about what they were doing and IIRC the calibre of the Yamato's guns wasn't realised until after the war.

Tony Williams
New book: Rapid Fire - The Development of Automatic Cannon, Heavy Machine Guns and their Ammunition for Armies, Navies and Air Forces.
Details on my military gun and ammunition website: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/

Offline pzvg

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Navy Ships Types.... Please Help!!!
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2000, 10:49:00 AM »
Actually, the Alaska class were BC's  
And Corvette and DE are interchangeable, US called 'em DE's and the UK called 'em corvettes.

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Offline Replicant

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Navy Ships Types.... Please Help!!!
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2000, 10:52:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by -duma-:
The Dreadnought is by far and away the best name of any ship ever. Admit it.  

It sure is Duma!

Thanks for the responses - the gun sizes and weights have helped explain everything!

Cheers

Nexx
NEXX

Offline bloom25

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Navy Ships Types.... Please Help!!!
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2000, 03:45:00 PM »
The RN has a knack for coming up with cool sounding/arrogant sounding names for ships.  

Some RN names:  Victory, Invincible, Redoubtable, Warspite, Revenge, Conqueror, Swiftsure, Defiance, Dreadnought, Formidable, Colossus.

Here in the US we name ships after people, battles, or states for the most part.


Naval trivia question:  What ships names were used by both the English and the French for ships present at Trafalgar?  There are at least two.

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Offline Eagler

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Navy Ships Types.... Please Help!!!
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2000, 04:00:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by bloom25:
The RN has a knack for coming up with cool sounding/arrogant sounding names for ships.  

Some RN names:  Victory, Invincible, Redoubtable, Warspite, Revenge, Conqueror, Swiftsure, Defiance, Dreadnought, Formidable, Colossus.

Here in the US we name ships after people, battles, or states for the most part.


Naval trivia question:  What ships names were used by both the English and the French for ships present at Trafalgar?  There are at least two.


Neptune was one

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Navy Ships Types.... Please Help!!!
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2000, 08:07:00 PM »
You sure about that pzvg? The Corvette was very differently armed than a DE and smaller, and much slower. Much much less AA, more anti-sub. Also I beleive DE were a good bit heavier too.