Author Topic: Another winning frame for the AXIS side  (Read 3843 times)

Offline CHAPPY

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Re: Another winning frame for the AXIS side
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2009, 09:15:36 AM »
We got RAPED by 35+ KI-84's that were at least 30k+. :aok
WTG axis nice Frame.

Offline Frodo

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Re: Another winning frame for the AXIS side
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2009, 09:25:47 AM »
We got RAPED by 35+ KI-84's that were at least 30k+. :aok
WTG axis nice Frame.

Chappy one heck of a long intense fight! You guys flew very well.  :salute

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Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: Another winning frame for the AXIS side
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2009, 11:04:31 AM »
For this frame I didn't expect that allies to such a number of bombers.

It's because the allied fighters have minimal ordinance capacity and range.  The Ki-61, Ki-84 and N1K can all deliver 500kg of ordinance anywhere on the map.
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Offline ghostdancer

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Re: Another winning frame for the AXIS side
« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2009, 11:29:45 AM »
Um no that is not it.

Look in the objectives I sent out to both sides I list the ordinance needed to take down each target. In total the allies needed to put 103,200 lbs on 5 objectives to kill all objectives 100% (actually 83,200 .. I forgot that I changed the point value for the Cruiser in the fleets but we didn't increase its hardness). The Axis had the same.

The allies launched 145 formations of B25Cs, that is 435 B25Cs in the air for a total bomb capacity of 1,305,000 lbs. They had an additional 5 A20Gs for another 10,000 lbs of bomb capacity. So for this frame they had the bombing capacity of 1,315,000 bombs. That is 12.7 times the amount needed for the higher incorrect amount of ordinance I listed in the objectives (103,200 lbs).

The Axis put 50 Ki67 formations , 150 Ki67s planes, into the air against objectives with that needed the same amount of ordinance (103,200 lbs .. correct amount 83,200 lbs). Their force had a total capacity of 264,000 lbs of ordinance. Which is 2.6 times the amount needed or the higher incorrect amount of ordinance I listed in the objectives (103,200 lbs).

Now that the frame is over I can comment on tactics. Usually in the past when I was a CiC the rough rule of thumb is you needed at least 2 times the amount of bombs needed to hit your objectives with. Many times people went as higher, especially if they went lighter on escorts. But the most I think I have seen is like 4 times the ordinance needed usually.  The reason for this is that you needed to leave yourself with enough fighters to provide escort and a credible defense. In WWII the 8th Air Force learned this lesson the hard way during their operations with unescorted B17 missions. Bombers without escorts suffer horrible casualties.

Now with that said I have gone through the logs and have scored the event. The Japanese main bombing relied on Ki67s .. which is why they fielded 50 formations instead of the bare minimum of 30.

Even so the bombing part of the war was close but the allies took it. The allies destroyed 57.9% of their targets. The Japanese destroyed 53.9% of their targets.

The Japanese lost 51 bombers and 118 fighters in Frame 2.

The Russians lost 241 bombers and 92 fighters in frame 2.

So it is not a case of the Japanese using dive bombers or their fighters dominating the Russian fighters in the air.

Nobody take offense at this please, since this is just a case of me going into strategy and why I was surprised. This was a case of the Allied commander of  a massive force of unescorted or very lightly escorted bombers and possibly relying on them escaping detection to get to target. They did do more damage to their targets than the Japanese did but there losses were horrific. Just like in real life when things like this were done in World War II.

So yes, I was surprised to see this over kill strategy bombers with no to light escorts tried.

If the allies say went with 6 times the ordinance needed tat would have been 69 formations (207 B25Cs) with  621,000 lbs of ordinance. That would have given them another 81 pilots to fly fighters in either defense of bases or escorts. I actually expected 4 times the bombers needed. However, as a CM and a designer I give CiCs the freedom to succeed and to fail.

Once again, don't read more into my words here than I was surprised at the decision .. it was very ballsy but didn't work out .. and then the rest is a discussion of strategic and tactical considerations of deploying forces to achieve bombing objectives.


P.S. I made a similiar type of mistake way back in the early days of FSO when I was a CiC (I think in 2003). It was during a Norway FSO and I threw a massive bomber force at the invading Allied fleets while keeping most of my fighters to defend bases. It had similar results to hear .. so I also learned the hard way about needing escorts and figuring how many bombers actually needed to be deployed (rough rule of thumb is from 2 to 4 times the amount needed to kill all targets).




« Last Edit: February 21, 2009, 11:38:13 AM by ghostdancer »
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Offline daddog

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Re: Another winning frame for the AXIS side
« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2009, 11:51:21 AM »
Mongrels were in B-25's slotted to hit A26. We went NOE, but the B-25C is just not very defensible. We had a few LA escorts but the N1K2's chewed us up. We did moderate damage to the field, but out of 20 pilots only 3 bomber pilots and 1 La pilot (1Cajun, RAYL49, Harppa, and LuckyI3) made it back to base. Tough night.

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Offline 442w30

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Re: Another winning frame for the AXIS side
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2009, 12:05:55 PM »
Air Raiders and JV44 found a target rich environment near 107.   :aok  The ensuing dogfight was memorable.    :salute
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Offline Twizzty

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Re: Another winning frame for the AXIS side
« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2009, 01:21:26 PM »
Is the fight really uneven?  Or are the Japanese forces using better tactics and flying their aircraft better?  It can be very hard to tell.

While flying escort tonight I saw lots of Lavochkins trying to attack Ki-67s from direct 6.  They all received swift punishment if our fighters hadn't gotten them already.  We seemed to be doing really well until we watched half the bombers collide into an invisible wall at the edge of a map. :huh

LOL, Ya Gavagai it was going very well until then. I didn't know that would happen, hell, I thought we still had a little space there west of 110...guess not, hehe. So we jumped into the rest of the bombers as gunners and decided to "cap" the field. 6 formations of manned death stars 3K above the field.  :uhoh Looking back I should have regressed and rearmed, but we were just having to much fun.

<S> to TAC and JG54, great job on the close escort!

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Offline Kermit de frog

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Re: Another winning frame for the AXIS side
« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2009, 02:14:58 PM »
<S> to AK's and TAC Drivers.

We few found a fight and what a fight it was.  Once those last Ki84 came in high over the fight, we knew it was only a matter of time.
 :salute

Oh and, gotcha AKDogg!
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Offline Motherland

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Re: Another winning frame for the AXIS side
« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2009, 02:26:31 PM »
We got RAPED by 35+ KI-84's that were at least 30k+. :aok
WTG axis nice Frame.
There were 15 of us, FYI :)
Fun fight, <S>
« Last Edit: February 21, 2009, 02:28:09 PM by Motherland »

Offline CHAPPY

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Re: Another winning frame for the AXIS side
« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2009, 02:28:44 PM »
There were 15 of us, FYI :)
Fun fight, <S>
what about the 68th guys?

Offline Motherland

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Re: Another winning frame for the AXIS side
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2009, 02:30:36 PM »
Wow, I never even saw them in the fight :huh
They came in, said we didn't need their help, and left. I don't think they were within film viewer distance for more than 5 minutes on my front end.
The only non-JG11 guys that were on my filmviewer were on there for literally 2 minutes. Not sure what happened.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2009, 02:32:59 PM by Motherland »

Offline CHAPPY

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Re: Another winning frame for the AXIS side
« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2009, 02:34:39 PM »
wut alt where you guys?

Offline Motherland

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Re: Another winning frame for the AXIS side
« Reply #27 on: February 21, 2009, 02:37:21 PM »
We were at 26K when we engaged you and ended up at the deck when it was all said and done.


Looking at the logs, looks like you guys engaged the 68s before you got to us?

Offline CHAPPY

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Re: Another winning frame for the AXIS side
« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2009, 02:39:15 PM »
yea, you guys where all ki-84's didnt know diff till looked at the logs.
16 pilots, 25 pilots = 41 pilots we ran into at some point.

I know there was alot seemed like.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2009, 02:49:31 PM by CHAPPY »

Offline Enker

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Re: Another winning frame for the AXIS side
« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2009, 04:04:33 PM »
Big <S> to the Yak I was trying to vulch at A3 when he was landing...you were bingo ammo right? But still, seeing that first wave of bombers at 84 was a little of,"Hey we can take this!" Then, that second wave was just a big  ol' scare...
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