YAK9-U vs. F4U-1A

[Slade]

Hello,

I was in a YAK9-U recently and the battle went to low altitude and eventually slow speed.  This guy I could tell was better than me and my ammo was low so I needed to make it stick.  He started doing that F4U float thing with flaps (but claimed one of his airlons or flaps were out - cannot remember) so I used the Yaks superior acceleration and extended out to 1.5 to 2.5.  We did this cycle a few times.

I never could get a shot (except for a Ho which I chose not to do).  I eventually crashed into the water typing to him.  It was a cool interchange and battle.  He did not appreciate me extending as I did and let me know it.

It seemed once the fight went low and slow it was a stalemate of tactics.  Neither of us could get a clean shot.

What techniques could advise in a similar situation in a YAK9-U vs. F4U-1A?

Thanks,

Slade 

[Anaxogoras]

What techniques could advise in a similar situation in a YAK9-U vs. F4U-1A?

Climb baby, climb!  Extending out a bit is totally reasonable, and he got mad because that's the correct way to fight the F4U, which can be infuriating in its ability to "float."  When you keep the fight a little looser like that, you're making it into a contest of acceleration, which is to the F4U's disadvantage.

I've been flying the Ki-84 a lot recently, and even though it is a nimble bird, I have a tough time against well flown F4U's if I try to hang with their endless looping/turning maneuvers.  Keep the nose up, get above them, make them pay a price for getting so slow.  Good luck.

[Saxman]

Only thing you can do is as gavagai said. You HAVE to get him low and slow, that's really the only state where the F4U is vulnerable: she dives too well, retains E too well, and handles too well at mid to high speeds. A Corsair stick that knows how to work those traits is a nasty opponent to face, and it's precisely why the F4U is one of the first planes to be mentioned when asked about the best plane in Aces High.

[BnZs]

Etiquette as I see it:
Its okay to run away from the angles fighter that gets on your six in a 1v1 and return with what you judge is enough E to E-fight him *once*. (Not to be confused with fighting in the vertical continuously.) If you give it your best shot using the E fighting and he ends up reversing you again, depending on how you look at it either extend and stay extended or go into the angles fighting with him and let him kill you. Don't keep him pinned to one spot with continuous running, then coming back to harass him,that is just rude.

Many-on-Many fights, all bets are off.

[trotter]

Nice post Slade. Don't listen to anyone who gives you grief for extending once you have lost the advantage. That's perfectly acceptable. You also did the right thing by not HO'ing on the secondary merges.

I disagree slightly in the advice given above by Saxman, just to the extent where he says don't fight a corsair fast. Yes, it performs well at mid to high speeds...but so does your yak. If you merge with both you and the corsair above 275mph, try to beat him in angles on the first turn, possibly even the second. But stay fast. The corsair will see you going angles and will most likely think you're playing into his game. He will drop flaps, maybe chop throttle, and do everything to get around on you first. If he doesn't go for flaps, well I'd say given equal pilot skill a mid speed yak and a mid speed corsair should make at least an equal fight, if not slightly in the yak's favor for reasons we will see later.

But let's assume the corsair does drop a notch or so of flaps and maybe has cut throttle. If you beat him in angles on the first or second turn, well congratulations that's it right there. If (more likely) you don't, that's fine, because now you should (granted you didnt chop throttle yourself) have the option to go vertical. It takes practice to know when this moment is, but you'll get it. Ideally wait until his nose is pointed away from your direction of flight, otherwise he may still have enough E to nose up for a shot. You should be able to get the perch easily, due to the corsair's earlier throttle and flaps manipulation, along with its poor (compared to the yak) climb rate.

[apcampbell]

I've just started tinkering in the Yak-9U. Nice bird with great views and speed. I also came across an F4U escorting a flight of B-17's. Not sure what the other pilot was doing, however, the Yak was able to climb out and close with the F4U after it's run. The Corsair pilot saw my Yak and turned to engage. After 2 passes, the F4U went down. Later that flight, I found a low Kate making a run on the nearby CV. Catching it wasn't a problem. Lining the Kate up was. The Kate pilot's breaking turns were enough to spoil my aim and forced me to break off for ammunition.

Nice little bird that Yak....

[AKHog]

I was in a YAK9-U recently and the battle went to low altitude and eventually slow speed. 

You've already lost.

Yak vs F4U, you should be doing everything you can to keep this an energy fight and not a turning battle. Stay high, keep your nose up, try to work him until you get an altitude advantage, then BnZ him until dead.

If I was the F4U I would have drug you to the deck and forced you to turn. Sounds like the hog pilot was a good one.

[whiteman]

I agree with and would do the same as AKHog. I know Saxman likes to keep the F4U fast but I like getting in the slow turning fights. Any Yak I come across I try to drag them down into a slow turn fight. Pretty much what I like to do with most except Hurri and A6M.

[AKHog]

Don't get me wrong, I like keeping my hog fast too.

In this game its just as important to know your own plane as it is to know the plane you are fighting against

In any 1v1 situation if you want to have any hope of winning you simply need to know what your plane does better than the other plane.

One of the reasons the F4U is so good is because it does so many things well, there is likely at least a few things it can to better than almost any other plane in the game.

In a co-E situation vs a Yak, the Yak has it beat in acceleration and climb. In this situation the Yak needs to keep this an "energy" fight, with lots of vertical maneuvers, and a BnZ type approach. While in this situation if I was in my hog I'd do everything I could to try and get the yak to turn with me, slowly if possible.

The great thing about the Hog is it will energy fight good enough to stay competitive, and then any time the fight slows down you can drop those huge flaps and out turn damn near anything. I love dragging spit 16s onto my close 6 then a hard turn. Within 2-3 revolutions they went from looking forward at me to looking backward at me. At that point they usually do something stupid like try to reverse or extend. 

[Anaxogoras]

The great thing about the Hog is it will energy fight good enough to stay competitive, and then any time the fight slows down you can drop those huge flaps and out turn damn near anything. I love dragging spit 16s onto my close 6 then a hard turn. Within 2-3 revolutions they went from looking forward at me to looking backward at me. At that point they usually do something stupid like try to reverse or extend. 

When flying the F4U, I can only remember one occasion when a XVI pilot had the sense to keep the fight up and down instead of banking the wings and pulling back like a simpleton.

[mtnman]

If I was the F4U I would have drug you to the deck and forced you to turn. Sounds like the hog pilot was a good one.

I generally try to get the high Yak to drag me to the deck instead, but other than that I agree. 

Defensively I'll dodge his slash attacks, and get some horizontal seperation after each one.  This allows me to cancel out his alt advantage after a few passes, especially if I can climb a bit in-between passes (I keep 275-300mph though).

The thing that gets the Yak killed is that after a few missed passes, most folks will slow down and try to saddle up better in their dive attack, which allows me to get behind them and force the situation.  Then as they dive out they find out the Hog dives really well, and they're forced to break hard or get shot.  It allows the Hog to zoom up to a perch (reversing the situation in play at the beginning) or turns the fight into a low/slow fight where the hog has all the advantages but one (acceleration) or two (climb) which the Yak probably won't remember to use in his time of stress...

The Yak really needs to keep his fight fast and smooth, and avoid getting in too tight/dirty with the F4U.  Keeping the fight to loose is bad though, the Hog will have time to keep speed and maybe even climb.  If the Yak keeps making his passes, but doesn't allow seperation to exceed 2.5K or so, and maintains his position vertically over the Hog (not allowing horizontal seperation) he can make things rough on the F4U.  That type of attack forces the Hog to turn tight to dodge, and forces him to keep his nose low to keep that speed.  The end result (if it gets that far) is that the Hog will be pinned to the deck with the Yak still making passes.  That's a tough position to be in for the Hog.  By making vertical attacks, the Yak can turn using just aileron, and the Hog really doesn't have a safe direction to turnm, and will have difficulty keeping visual on the Yak...  The Yak should keep from going below the F4U on these passes, and many of the passes can be "bluffs", where the Yak zooms back up as soon as the Hog commits to his break turn...

[BaDkaRmA158Th]

"You also did the right thing by not HO'ing on the secondary merges."


What a load of bull crap. 


F4u's are monsters, yaks are great knife fighters tho i just cant see why you didnt take whatever shot you had, granted your ammo was limited and you augerd giving the guy the kill.

For gods sake man, shoot your weapon any time you can, in every situation, no matter what.
Do you think your enemy would not?


When a f4u's flaps fully drop i get ZERO sense of guilt for hoing someone who can fly in 90mph circles, if f4u pilots didnt have glass engines im very sure they wouldnt be so anti-ho, but i can understand where they come from, because NO ONE likes to be flaps fully down nose up and engine out. 

[cegull]

I think that the turning rate of the F4U's and P51's is over the top.  I have been out turned by them when using a spit 9 in a flat turn near the ground.  For such heavy planes to turn like that is BS. But that's probably the flap thing.  Probably not enough drag in the FM.  The F4Uers know they have the flap edge thing so dont feel guilty about using what ever tactics work.   Check out the weights and wing loading of the different AC and you will see what I mean.  The F4U is like 4 to 5 thousand pounds heavier.  Yep, its time to call the FM police.

[Anaxogoras]

I love Spit pilots who think it's their god-given right to outmaneuver every plane in the game regardless of wing-loading, energy states, fuel loads, etc...

[Scotch]

I think that the turning rate of the F4U's and P51's is over the top.  I have been out turned by them when using a spit 9 in a flat turn near the ground.  For such heavy planes to turn like that is BS. But that's probably the flap thing.  Probably not enough drag in the FM.  The F4Uers know they have the flap edge thing so dont feel guilty about using what ever tactics work.   Check out the weights and wing loading of the different AC and you will see what I mean.  The F4U is like 4 to 5 thousand pounds heavier.  Yep, its time to call the FM police.

I'll bet I could keep a b17 with your spit for the first two turns.