Question for You RL Pilots Out There...

[SectorNine50]

I'm seriously considering obtaining my pilot's license and flying for a living.  I'm currently in college here, but have discovered I really have no taste for an office job (or college for that matter) and have always been interested in aviation and wanted to fly airplanes since I was 10 when I got Microsoft Flight Simulator '98.   I feel that my dad works far too hard to put me and my younger sister through college for him to spend his money on something I don't feel I'm benefiting from and won't ultimately make me happy (yes, I understand the power of a college diploma, but at least at this point in time, it's just not for me).

Anyway, I can't see myself flying for an airline, but more in the sense of charter or bush flying (maybe, depends on the job's location).  I've poked around and the pay obviously isn't as much as an airline captain, but that doesn't bug me a whole lot.  I get the feeling that as an airline pilot I would get increasingly bored as the routes would be mostly the same day-in and day-out.  I've researched the training (and money, yikes) I'd need and it really seems very interesting and tantalizing route for me to take.

Long story short, I was hoping that any of you who have gone through any part of this experience could share some wisdom with me.  Anything from getting through flight training, to what would help me land a job, etc.  I want to figure out as much as I can about this huge decision before I dive in.

Thanks for your help,
-Justin (Sector95)

[eagl]

I'd say first thing, you should research where the local small cargo outfits operate from, and see if you can corner some of the pilots to talk about what it is like.  From what I've heard (I've done most of my flying in the military) the lifestyle of a pilot working his way up the "hard way" is very demanding, with lots of time away from home with very very low pay and a lot of pressure to fly the route regardless of weather or aircraft condition (what, your engine won't start?  Well, you got TWO of them right?)

There are a couple of civvy pilots who read this board (or used to?) so hopefully they'll give you a better answer of what they went through.

Oh yes, if you can afford it, going through a school dedicated to producing commercial pilots can be expensive but worthwhile if they can place you right into a job with a reputable outfit.  Embry Riddle used to be one of those companies the last time I looked into it (about 18 years ago...  ) so I don't know what flight schools are the best nowadays.

[SFRT - Frenchy]

Use the search function, that was discussed many time in here. The flight training is the easy part, financially. It'll go two ways for you, or you'll get sucked up by a regioonal airline with 400 1/2 hours on the right seat of something for $1800/month, or you'll get to be a Fligth Instructor for 2-3 years for peanuts till you get about 1500Hs, then get hired somewhere at $1800/months.

Eventually, after 5-10 years in a descent airline, u'll be captain of something pulling 80K+ year, till you get furload when the economy burps because mohamed farted in the middle of the desert.

Don't do it for the money, if you want to feel like a pilot fly for the airlines, if you want to be a pilot fly cargo, make sure u get a wife that makes more money than you, don't plan on raising kids you'll be away at best 75H+ hours per week.

[avionix]

I will say that many of the outfits that do fly cargo or some others may require a degree.  Most of the jobs acting as pilot do.  Granted in this business, it is who you know sometimes more than what you know.  Thought I wanted to fly for a living.  Then talked with many of my instructors after they had gone on and found that it was a life that I did not want.  Finally found myself selling avionics for a living.  Must say that I found I really love this job.  Still get to talk aviation all day and I am home every night.  Except for Sun n Fun and Oshkosh when I get to stay out late.  Look through the jobs that the aviation industry has to offer.  Some other than being a pilot may peak your interest. 

[Cougar68]

I've been wrestling with this same line of thought after getting my PPL last august.  The best thing you can do is to give a REALISTIC look to your starting salary.  Then try to imagine living for a few years off of that while you're making payments on $50k in training debt.

[Anaxogoras]

If you want to fly, seriously consider Air Force ROTC.  You'll get the diploma out of the way, become an officer, and by the time you finish your mandatory service to pay back Uncle Sam for your education, you might opt for a few more years and retire with military benefits.

A friend of mine is on this path and it's working out well for him.

[mechanic]

 This might sound like a drastic way to get your PPL...but...Think about serving a few years in the air force. You can easily find someone to help bump up your flying hours, and probably a heck of alot cheaper than as a civvy. I have done about 5 hours in cessna 152's which cost me almost about 600 pounds sterling. To add to that i flew about another 5 hours log time whilst on RAF cadet camps and through knowing people with aircraft, which cost me a little over 50 push up per morning at the most and a cup of coffee at the least.
 Be selective and thoughtfull and you could save a boat load of cash just getting your hours up to par.

[AAJagerX]

ATP has good "Fast Track" programs.  Depending on where you live, they would be a good choice.  You'll get alot of multi-engine time with them as well, unlike alot of smaller flight training schools. 

[AKHog]

Like others have said, use the search to find more information, this has been talked about a million times before.

A pilots license is quick, cheap and easy to get compared to a 4 year degree. The degree will help you immensely in the aviation field. If you loose your medical, you have something to fall back on. You can get your ratings while in school or later. There are cheap ways to do it, don't let anyone tell you it cost $50k for a commercial license. If you are 100% dedicated from the start there are ways to do it for about half that.

Forget about "bush" flying and all of those romantic fantasy flying jobs, they just don't exist, at least in the professional sense. Bush pilots flying piper cubs have been replaced with hour builders flying twin Otters and stuff like that. Aviation is too competitive, any job that is fun, that has low requirements, and pays decent enough is being fought over by retired airline captains and military pilots.

If you go get a commercial license you'll have about 250 hours +/-35, and there are simply not a lot of jobs available. Flight instruction is the most popular, and that typically goes two ways: You find a FBO that hires you for a decent wage but you only have a couple of students, or you find a flight school that has all the students you can handle but they pay fast food wages. Either way its not easy to survive. Even as an instructor you'll need to count on continuing education, like earning your multi ratings. 2nd and 3rd jobs are the norm. Entrepreneurial attitudes help.

I hear there are other entry level jobs you can get with low hours, like flying power lines, flying checks, air traffic, etc. I've had a commercial license for 5 years and have not come across a single one of these "entry level" jobs. Everyone wants 1000 hours, type experience, a college degree, or something else I don't have.

Now that I've paid off my first round of student loans I'm going back into debt to get my certified flight instructor rating. Hopefully within a year I'll have a job getting paid bus boy wages and will be logging 2 hours a week. Then maybe in another 5 years I'll have enough hours to get one of those "entry level jobs" that I've heard so much about. Then maybe in another 10 years I'll find a decent career type job.

Yea, its not easy, nobody is doing it for the money. There are a dozen other guys out there with trust funds that will take your job for half the wage just so they can fly. Go to your local General Aviation airport, check out the guys who have the best airplanes and are having the most fun, chances are their job is NOT related to aviation. There are plenty of jobs you can get that will allow you the time and money to fly for fun.

Oh and one more thing, if you don't know what your doing stop pissing away your dad's money. Take a few years off, travel around, screw off, whatever. In 3 years you'll be a completely different person and will be ready to put that money to good use.

A career in aviation is a selfish thing. The rewards are personal, not monetary, and not anything you can share with others. But in the end, all any of us have are our experiences. I'll have some good ones.

[SectorNine50]

Thank you very much for your insight guys, this is exactly the information I needed to help with my decision.  I'm gonna keep doing research and I'm definitely going to make sure I know as much as I can before I make a decision.  I can say that I'm not certain that being a pilot is the lifestyle for me, but that's what I'm going to have to think about.

Thanks again, and I'll see you all in AH!

[Casca]

My advice would be if you are casually considering flying for a livelihood as just a possible option in a universe of possibilites, forget it.  Aviation has to be a pretty compelling and consuming interest to jump through all of the requisite hoops.  It is a calling IMHO.

[Golfer]

If there is a shred of doubt that this flying isn't the only thing you'd enjoy and couldn't find happiness through any other lot in life do as Casca said.  Go get a degree, get a good paying job which will have you home with your family and fly for fun.  Making a career out of aviation is more difficult today than probably any other time since 1903 and the romance is gone.

The days of <1000 hour pilots getting hired at airlines en masse are over.  Business aviation is in the sights of public opinion because the rich fat cats are pissing away money on the luxury of private airplane travel.  Nevermind that most flight departments transport mid-level managers and also have the ability to move people worth more than $25,000/hr with efficiency and safety allowing them not to rot waiting 4 hours for their connection in Atlanta.

There are literally thousands of professional pilots with multiples of my experience looking for jobs.  An entry level co-pilot (entry level meaning lousy pay) filled in Scottsdale by a 12,000 hour captain whose flight department shut down.  In an informal poll on a professional association website the number of pilots furloughed or fired outright looking for work is north of 25%.  One in four profesional pilots is out of work with more and more flight department closures every day.  You want to fly charter you say?  Good luck because the demand for lift is down across the board by more than 50% off of peak hours flown.  Operators are laying off pilots, new airplanes aren't coming onto their certificates and owners are selling their airplanes.

Resale values for business airplanes are spiraling down.  Shiny nice Gulfstream IVs are available for just north of 10 million.  A Gulfstream G550 sold about a month ago for about 23 million after being purchased for 55 million only one year earlier.  For folks with cash now is the time to buy because it's without a doubt a buyers market these days.  Unfortunately with TARP, the bailout and other congressional directives use of business airplanes is being choked off because of popular public (and gravely incorrect) perception.

It'll probably turn around at some point but I wouldn't recommend and have not recommended anyone begin training for a career in aviation these days.  Especially at pilot mills like ATP or any "fast track" schools.  All that's going to do is put you into deeper debt with no job to show for it and no degree to make yourselves competitive in the market of today or tomorrow.

The international markets are even drying up.  Several contract agencies a year ago couldn't find enough people to fill all the slots in Europe, Middle East and Asia.  Now there might be only a few clients looking for contractors which was for quite a few years a potentially lucrative industry.  A good friend of mine had contracts in Brazil, Mumbai, Germany and Italy for various rotations and went from being rushed out the door after a few weeks at home to checking to make sure his cell phone still works because it doesn't ring anymore.  Airlines overseas that would hire expats to fly on a contract basis have in some cases fired all foreigners working for them as well.  Airlines have folded pouring thousands of command qualified and experienced pilots on the street driving down salaries and increasing competition for the very few jobs available.

Even in the good times the average lifespan of a corporate flight department was 5 years.  Mine is turning 5 this year...we'll see how 2009 goes.

My advice:

Run, don't walk.  Find something that makes you happy, do it and enjoy it.  Fly as a hobby and bore holes in the sky as opposed to putting your family through the stresses of repeated layoffs even from those dream Fortune 500, 200, 100 and 50 jobs.  They go away even when you thought they'd outlast everyone else.

[Babalonian]

Someone I knew while growing up (our parents were friends) tried desperatley to get into the Air Force to become a pilot.  A lot of people join the Air Force to learn how to fly, and he couldn't get in each time he tried.  He finaly looked elsewhere and within a week he was signed up with the Navy to learn how to fly the large AWACS planes they launch off a carrier.

Everything was going perfect for him through training and everything... until he got on a boat (turns out even on an aircraft carrier he got sea sick terribly).  But even then, he lucked out b/c he talked to the right people and got reasigned to a Naval Air Station in Florida, flying supplies and mail in the same planes (as he explained it was just a cargo setup instead of the AWACS setup).  Spent almost 10 years I think living in Florida, in the Navy as a pilot, and never had to step on another ship unless he had to land on it to drop some stuff off.

He just recently (in the last couple of years) finished his Navy career and is now flying cargo out of San Diego for I think Fed Ex.

So, from the people I know and have asked, the Air Force is (as a pilot) a beast to get into, you need to be lucky, no smudges on your records, the stars have to align properly, and a letter from your congressman doesn't hurt either.

[Cobra516]

I would suggest going to http://www.jetcareers.com  and doing a search for this topic - there is a ton of information from a lot of great people who have been there and done it.

I've been flying with my dad in his Super Cub since I was about 6.  I solo'd on my 16th b-day, license at 17, built time in my dads Super Cub/flight school airplanes, got my degree last year and am  working toward my goal of making it a career.  I just earned my instrument rating (am 24 now), and should have the commercial in a few weeks, already have the required hours, just need to take the written and checkride.  I plan to go the CFI route to the airlines.  Over the years I've met a lot of great contacts that are willing to help me out in any way they can - aviation is a relatively small community, and knowing the right people will get you a job, so constantly network.

I would start out by visiting local FBO's and seeing what kind of operation they have, see what kind of airplanes they fly, prices, and get to know some of the instructors, ask questions.  Once you find an FBO that you'd like to train at, talk with different instructors here and there and get a feel for them - picking the right instructor is one of the most important first steps to your flight training.  Different instructors obviously have different personalities and reasons for instructing - some are just there to build time as #1 and teaching is #2, be wary of them, not to say that someone that says they're building time for the airlines is a bad choice for an instructor - but get a feel for them.  Someone who comes across as enthusiastic about aviation, seems to enjoy teaching and has a good reputation at the flight school would be an excellent choice. 

Make a list of questions you'd like to ask different instructors - see how each responds.  Questions like, why do you like to fly? What are your plans after flight instructing? How long have you been flying?  What type of flying have you done?  Do you enjoy teaching? What do you like about flight instructing? etc.   

Remember that your first taste of aviation is largely shaped by the demeanor of your instructor and the environment in which you learn to fly.  If you have bad experiences with a bad instructor or flight school, then you may have a sour taste for aviation as a whole.  Remember, flying should be fun and enjoyable, especially for a new student - you'll learn over time the sometimes harsh realities that are inherant to aviation, but it's important that you enjoy your primary training.  The right instructor will create a challenging and enjoyable learning environment which will ensure that your first experiences with aviation are positive. 

Also remember that there will be times that you may get frustrated or discouraged, and feel like "it" may never click.  Make sure you communicate well with your instructor, let him know how you feel, ask him if maybe he'd explain or demonstrate something differently - not everyone learns the same way.  If, after a few flights something doesn't "click" - ask your instructor if he'd mind you flying with another instructor, different instructors have different methods of teaching the same material - what might work for one student from one instructor may not necessarily work well for the other.

If you get settled in with one instructor, try to remain with that instructor through the duration of your training - it will save time and money, assuming he is a good match for your learning style.  If you bounce around to different instructors, you will likely end up spending more time and money, because you'll likely end up covering the same material with different instructors as they get a feel for just how competent you are/how much you've learned so far, and each instructor may want to see a certain maneuver completed in a slightly different way than another instructor.  However, if you feel that your instructor is slowing your progress, does not have you in their best interest, or does not seem to be the right match for you, then don't hesitate to bring up the issue with him/her and tell them that you'd like to try a different instructor, they will understand.

Make sure that your schedule and that of your flight instructor will mesh well - try to fly as often as possible, it will really reduce the time spent to get your license.  I'd say try to fly at least twice a week.  If you take long breaks in between flights, you'll be surprised how rusty you may be on the next flight - and may have to spend time going over some of the same material again.  Remember to study the material that you'll be covering on your next lesson, be prepared, it will save time/money and make it easier for both you and your instructor.  Instead of spending time on the ground going over material that you should have already had a grasp on, you'll be able to hop into the plane and go fly.  However, if you have questions over the material that you studied prior to the lesson then certainly ask questions.

Like I said there is a lot to learn and it may seem overwhelming at first, but try not to get discouraged - study the books, prepare for your lessons, communicate with your instructor, and don't be afraid to ask questions.  If you do all of that then you should have a very enjoyable flight training experience.

I'd reccomend going to a part 61 FBO school to get your ratings, buckle down, study hard and fly often.  It will be much cheaper than attending the very expensive aviation colleges/airline pilot programs.

Here's some links I found with some good information - I'd reccomend browsing through the Flight Training Magazine archives, lots of great articles for student pilots.
http://flighttraining.aopa.org/members/ft_magazine/archives/view_contents.cfm

Picking a Flight School
http://flighttraining.aopa.org/learntofly/school/

http://flighttraining.aopa.org/learntofly/overview/learning.cfm

Picking an instructor
http://4vfr.com/?goto=instructor&section=learn-to-fly
http://flymeaway.vox.com/library/post/the-tough-choices-picking-a-flight-school-picking-an-instructor.html

Learning Beyond the Lesson
http://flighttraining.aopa.org/members/ft_magazine/archives/article.cfm?article=5806

When Will I Solo?
http://flighttraining.aopa.org/members/ft_magazine/archives/article.cfm?article=5621

Why do some students quit?
http://flighttraining.aopa.org/members/ft_magazine/archives/article.cfm?article=5622

How hard is learning to fly?
http://flighttraining.aopa.org/members/ft_magazine/archives/article.cfm?article=5620

The most important lesson
http://flighttraining.aopa.org/members/ft_magazine/archives/article.cfm?article=5620


Long post, hope it helped!  Good luck with everything, aviation is one of the most challenging and rewarding activities one can do, and few ever get the chance to experience it.  If you get your license, you'll be among the one-half of one percent of the population that are pilots.

Remember, the four forces of flight are lift (dreams), weight (reality), thrust (money) and drag (the FAA)  

- Rick 

[Wolfala]

If there is a shred of doubt that this flying isn't the only thing you'd enjoy and couldn't find happiness through any other lot in life do as Casca said.  Go get a degree, get a good paying job which will have you home with your family and fly for fun.  Making a career out of aviation is more difficult today than probably any other time since 1903 and the romance is gone.

The days of <1000 hour pilots getting hired at airlines en masse are over.  Business aviation is in the sights of public opinion because the rich fat cats are pissing away money on the luxury of private airplane travel.  Nevermind that most flight departments transport mid-level managers and also have the ability to move people worth more than $25,000/hr with efficiency and safety allowing them not to rot waiting 4 hours for their connection in Atlanta.

There are literally thousands of professional pilots with multiples of my experience looking for jobs.  An entry level co-pilot (entry level meaning lousy pay) filled in Scottsdale by a 12,000 hour captain whose flight department shut down.  In an informal poll on a professional association website the number of pilots furloughed or fired outright looking for work is north of 25%.  One in four profesional pilots is out of work with more and more flight department closures every day.  You want to fly charter you say?  Good luck because the demand for lift is down across the board by more than 50% off of peak hours flown.  Operators are laying off pilots, new airplanes aren't coming onto their certificates and owners are selling their airplanes.

Resale values for business airplanes are spiraling down.  Shiny nice Gulfstream IVs are available for just north of 10 million.  A Gulfstream G550 sold about a month ago for about 23 million after being purchased for 55 million only one year earlier.  For folks with cash now is the time to buy because it's without a doubt a buyers market these days.  Unfortunately with TARP, the bailout and other congressional directives use of business airplanes is being choked off because of popular public (and gravely incorrect) perception.

It'll probably turn around at some point but I wouldn't recommend and have not recommended anyone begin training for a career in aviation these days.  Especially at pilot mills like ATP or any "fast track" schools.  All that's going to do is put you into deeper debt with no job to show for it and no degree to make yourselves competitive in the market of today or tomorrow.

The international markets are even drying up.  Several contract agencies a year ago couldn't find enough people to fill all the slots in Europe, Middle East and Asia.  Now there might be only a few clients looking for contractors which was for quite a few years a potentially lucrative industry.  A good friend of mine had contracts in Brazil, Mumbai, Germany and Italy for various rotations and went from being rushed out the door after a few weeks at home to checking to make sure his cell phone still works because it doesn't ring anymore.  Airlines overseas that would hire expats to fly on a contract basis have in some cases fired all foreigners working for them as well.  Airlines have folded pouring thousands of command qualified and experienced pilots on the street driving down salaries and increasing competition for the very few jobs available.

Even in the good times the average lifespan of a corporate flight department was 5 years.  Mine is turning 5 this year...we'll see how 2009 goes.

My advice:

Run, don't walk.  Find something that makes you happy, do it and enjoy it.  Fly as a hobby and bore holes in the sky as opposed to putting your family through the stresses of repeated layoffs even from those dream Fortune 500, 200, 100 and 50 jobs.  They go away even when you thought they'd outlast everyone else.

Hate to say it, but being in aviation the last 16 years - RUN if you plan to do it for a career. If you want it for fun, then go for it.