p-51d and p38L acceleration is identical up to 250 mph then p51 superior by far.

[Citabria]

this is historically accurate for the most part, but if fuel loading and fuel burn are factored into arena play the P-51 will actually be superior in all areas.

p-51 25% fuel 4 guns wep on sea level
100mph-300mph 0:55
p-38 25% fuel small ammo wep on sea level
100mph-300mph 0:55
p-51 25% fuel 4 guns wep on sea level
0mph- 300mph 1:03
p38 25% fuel small ammo wep on sea level
0mph- 300mph 1:01

p-51 full fuel 6 guns 10k wep on
150-250mph 0:42
p-38 fuel fuel large ammo 10k wep on
150-250mph 0:42
p-51 25% fuel 4 guns 10k wep on
150-250mph 0:33
p-38 25% fuel small ammo 10k wep on
150-250mph 0:33


"anything the p-51 could do the P-38 could do better, the only thing the P-51 had over it was top speed"
no doubt a biased generalization from a loyal pilot  

[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 06-02-2000).]

[Citabria]

comparison
all speeds are IAS
109g10 25% fuel wep sea level
100mph-300mph 0:38
La5Fn 25% fuel wep sea level
100mph-300mph 0:40
109g2 25% fuel wep sea level
100mph-300mph 0:47
typhoon 25% fuel wep sea level
100mph-300mph 0:48
109g6 25% fuel wep sea level
100mph-300mph 0:50
c.205 25% fuel wep sea level
100mph-300mph 0:50
n1k2 25% fuel wep sea level
100mph-300mph 0:52
190a8 25% fuel wep sea level
100mph-300mph 0:54
p-51 25% fuel 4 guns wep on sea level
100mph-300mph 0:55
p-38 25% fuel small ammo wep on sea level
100mph-300mph 0:55
spitIX 25% fuel wep sea level
100mph-300mph 0:57
F4u1c 25% fuel wep sea level
100mph-300mph 0:57

[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 06-01-2000).]

[funked]

I did the same test at 15k and got different results:  http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum9/HTML/000368.html

By choosing to do your test at 10k, you picked an altitude where the P-51D has it's greatest excess power.  Check out climb rate and power vs. altitude curves to see what I am talking about.

Do your test at 25k, or even any other altitude above 10k, and you'll get some results that match your favorite anectdotes.

Also you make some claims about range and turning ability that are not substantiated.

So let's see you've got one poorly done comparison with an anectdote, and two unsubstantiated claims.  If you think HTC is going to waste on this crap, you are nuts.



[This message has been edited by funked (edited 06-01-2000).]

[Citabria]

I guess my observations are different than yours.

btw this observation was done in 1.02
yours was not.

thanks for insulting me btw.

[funked]

Sorry, after the false claims of "playability changes" plus accusing me of instigating the lift coefficient change, you've depleted my supply of patience.


[This message has been edited by funked (edited 06-01-2000).]

[Citabria]

funked I appologize for offending you.
I'm just trying to figure out why the P-38 sucks in every aspect compared to the p-51.

while playing AH I have found that most P-51s are carrying less than 50% and sometimes 25% fuel since it lasts them so long. now on the other end of that the p-38s are ussually carrying more than 50% fuel since their fuel does not last the same amount of time.

if you look at it that way you will find that on average the mustangs are indeed outperforming the lightnings in every area.

I guess this was the reason I was interested enough in the numbers to record them in the first place, fighting p51s down to the deck and ending up in a stall fight in which if they find things going bad they simply roll out of their turn and accelerate away.

[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 06-01-2000).]

[funked]

OK sorry I'm on the rag, must be the turn rate BS on the general forum.  Just be careful with blanket generalizations - P-38L engine is fairly insensitive to altitude while the P-51D power varies greatly.

Just did some tests, haven't even had time to analyze them:

15k feet altitude, WEP on, 100% internal fuel, max ammo.
Speeds in TRUE  mph.
Speed (MPH TAS), P-38L time (SEC), P-51D time (SEC)
150,0,0
175,5,6
200,11,14
225,19,22
250,28,33
275,38,44
300,53,61
325,71,77
350,104,104

Same test, 20k feet.
200,0,0
225,8,9
250,18,19
275,29,30
300,43,46
325,60,62
350,87,88

I used TAS because as Pyro mentioned once, each plane has a different pitot tube calibration curve.

I just read the seconds of the stopwatch - not the tenths and hundredths, so error is +/- 0.5 second.

FYI 20k is the altitude where P-51D power begins it's second decline.  If you get bored, Do 25k for me, should be a huge dropoff for the Mustang.


[This message has been edited by funked (edited 06-01-2000).]

[Vermillion]

Citabria, I don't get it. Honestly. What are you expectations of the P-38, and where did they come from?

 

"anything the p-51 could do the P-38 could do better, the only thing the P-51 had over it was top speed"

If your basing your opinons on statements like this, sorry to disillusion you, but I can find similar statements for just about every fighter aircraft ever made. Pilots are a very loyal type, especially if they flew the plane in combat.

Just ask the finns, they will tell you the Brewster Buffalo will rule the arena  

In Aces High I find in my experience that in most cases, the P-38 does outclass the P-51 in most categories but speed (climb, acceleration, turn, and guns).

If your in a low fight and the Pony is going wings level and then out running you, what is wrong? Unless your nose to tail angle is already very small (unless your already pretty much on his six) you have to complete the turn to match direction, then out accelerate the Pony to catch him before his overall speed advantage comes into play. You can out accelerate him, but not by any huge margin.

From America's Hundred Thousand (AHT) at Sea level, starting from 250mph and combat power, the P-38L can accelerate at 4.13 ft/sec/sec, while the P-51D can accelerate at 3.85 ft/sec/sec.

This comes out to 2.82 mph/sec for the P-38 and 2.63 mph/sec for the P-51. That only comes out to a 0.28 mph /sec acceleration advantage.

Plus at sea level the overall speed advantage of the Pony is quite significant. The Pony can do 367mph at SL, while the P-38 can only do 345mph.

That means that according to historical test data (rough case since acceleration isn't constant over the entire speed spectrum), theoretically it should take the P-38 33.7 seconds to go to max speed from 250mph, and it should take the P-51 36 seconds to get to the P-38's max speed. Not much different is it?

EDIT: And also realize that this should be at 100% fuel (which is alot more fuel in the Pony), so if he is carrying less than 100%then that difference in acceleration is gonna be even less.

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 06-01-2000).]

[niklas]

Vermillion, little mistake: acceleration is not constant, so your calculation of 33.7sec for the p38 to reach topspeed is completly wrong.

in a simple mathematic model youŽll reach maximum speed only in the infinity. The closer you get to maxspeed, the smaller is your acceleration.

niklas

[Vermillion]

Niklas, look back at what I wrote.

 

(rough case since acceleration isn't constant over the entire speed spectrum)

I know acceleration is not constant and stated that in what I wrote   I said that it was a rough estimation, for that reason.

I was just trying to illustrate that over that period of time (250 to 350) that even then, the difference is a matter of only a couple of seconds.

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 06-01-2000).]

[Fishu]

It's just the uber P-51 that historically was slow accerlate but thats just false propaganda, as HTC thinks it and has decided to give it real historical acceleration  

for all those dummies out there, maximum speed doesn't mean that it will also accerlate faster.

[Kieren]

 

Originally posted by Fishu:
It's just the uber P-51 that historically was slow accerlate but thats just false propaganda, as HTC thinks it and has decided to give it real historical acceleration  

for all those dummies out there, maximum speed doesn't mean that it will also accerlate faster.

Guess I'm a dummy, because I can't figure out what you're trying to say.  

I think you are trying hard to slide a cutting comment in about HTC with regards to American aircraft, but you have mangled your sentence structure to the point it fails.

I know English is not your native tongue, but one of the reasons you are received poorly here is your posts always seem to have a snide tone. I've talked with you personally and don't find you that way, but sometimes I read posts like the one above and I shake my head...  

[eye]

Ill tell you this i spent the last month in a 38l. The p51 can take it down low. The l wasent the j or earlier models it was alot better. The 38 is half finished in my opinion. Where are the dive flaps? At high speed it rolls too well and it at very high speed should still tuck its nose even with flaps. A
]ll are not modeled. One last thing i bet it turned better too than this one.

[Vermillion]

The P-38 does turn well, especially for a plane of its size and weight. But its not a Spitfire or a Zero.

The P-38 is at its best at higher altitudes. If your fighting in it at 15,000ft and below, like most MA combat, your giving away alot of its strengths.

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

[fats]

--- Vermillion: ---
Just ask the finns, they will tell you the Brewster Buffalo will rule the arena
--- end ---

There is no evidence what so ever that it wouldn't.


//fats