Author Topic: Seafire landing help (Read 1011 times)

Maverick · « **on:** December 30, 2000, 04:39:00 PM »

Just a quick observation. I noted that in the films I have seen of WW2 carrier ops that most of the planes had the canopy open on landing. It is my understanding that this helped visibility as the pilot could look outside of the canopy restrictions and egress the plane if it ditched in the water.

I have tried landing the carrier planes while on TA last night. I found the F6F, TBM to be very manageable and by "sitting up" in the cockpit, I could maintain a view of the deck all the way to touch down. After about 8 tries I was able to make good landings and used the same F6F for 10 in a row. It ain't hard, just difficult to learn.

The seafire is a different horse entirely. At anything but a dive I can't see over the nose to line up. The flaps do not induce a nose down attitude to allow vision of the deck. Slipping isn't really an option. I know it had a long nose and I understand why even land based pilots landed with the canopy open. HT, can we do the same here?? The view limitations with the canopy closed do not allow the player to maintain a view of the deck on landing.

Mav

funked · « **Reply #1 on:** December 30, 2000, 04:47:00 PM »

I fly the Spits almost exclusively and landing is definitely interesting.

Did you move your viewpoint up? I set my forward hat view so that it is up real high and I can see over the nose a little better. Visibility is still bad but it's playable.

Another real life Spitfire trick that works well in the game is to fly a curving approach.

And slipping works too. You just have to straighten it out at the last moment. I've seen this on several tapes of WW2 carrier landings.

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 12-30-2000).]

Maverick · « **Reply #2 on:** December 30, 2000, 05:00:00 PM »

Funked,

By sittin up I meant i moved the view up as far as I could. I still can't see past the canopy edge with it closed. That's why I was asking for the option.

Mav

Bradburger · « **Reply #3 on:** December 30, 2000, 05:50:00 PM »

Maverick, i don't know if this helps but this is what i posted on one of the WB forums way,way back when someone asked the same question:

Quote

...Landing the Seafire in Warbirds & real life was not easy to say the least. The long nose and the fact that it was never designed as a carrier fighter meant that a simple but safe technique had to be developed for carrier landings. The folowing info below might be of some use:

Reading Jeffrey Quill's (Famous Spitfire test pilot) book 'Spitfire' makes some interesting reading on this subject.

"The correct method for a deck landing was to approach the ship in a curving left hand turn with a well controlled rate of decent, sneaking in just in front of the Seafires blind area astern of the ship.This can be done quite safely due to the Seafires excellent lateral stability characteristics right down to the stall. If the circuit is flown correctly and the moment of turning correctly judged it wasn't really difficult but accurate flying is required never the less.

Quill came up with these rough-rules for deck landing a Seafire (Image removed from quote.)some have been shortened or omitted to comply with WB)

1)Circuit height 300-400ft.
2)Fly ahead of the Ship For 10-15 seconds According to windspeed before commencing circuit
3)Keep circuit small
4)Lower hook, Undercarrige & flaps during circuit before getting abeam the ship on the downwind leg.
5)While still Ahead of the beam, slow down to 80 kts (93 mph) & watch for the moment to turn in which can only be a matter of judgement but it will be easier to judge when you have nothing else to concentrate on!
6)When on the port quarter during your turn settle down to the correct approach speed (70-75 kts with a IIC)and keep a steady rate of decent, watch your speed & make up your mind that you are going to arrive from the port quarter and not the starboard.

Well I hope you found that interesting. It should be useful info for would be Seafire pilots. Landing the Seafire in WB takes a lot of concentration & practice. But when you do it right you will find it satisfying. It really does test your concentration and flying skills. As Quill stated: "Every deck landing was a challanging affair even for experienced pilots. I had reached the stage where I felt that I could land a Spitfire in my sleep on an aerodrome if need be. I soon found that during a sortie from a carrier,there was always on ones mind that one had to get this damm thing on the ship again"!

That's from the original post. As i said i hope it is of some help.

Cheers

Paul

funked · « **Reply #4 on:** December 30, 2000, 05:55:00 PM »

Thanks Bradburger!
I'm going to order Quill's book now.

Interesting to note the speeds. Keep in mind that the AH ASI reads in mph. I think a lot of Spit landing problems in AH stem from landing too fast.

(Doesn't sound like this is Mav's problem at all though)

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 12-30-2000).]

Sparks · « **Reply #5 on:** December 30, 2000, 06:06:00 PM »

I fly Spits a lot Mav and although I haven't tried a carrier landing yet I was going to go for a full flap steep approach with late flare. My reasoning is that the Spit flaps give huge amounts of drag ( it will not climb with full power) and so steepening the approach to see the deck will not increase the speed too much then flare hard to lose excess speed and lose sight of deck for minimum time. I'll try and let you know how I get on.

Sparks · « **Reply #6 on:** December 30, 2000, 07:25:00 PM »

OOOOOOOkaaay ..... this is officially difficult. Cancel what I suggested Mav - the Spits undercarriage is made of glass so you can't thump it on and have it stick.

After many crashes I have worked the following approach which has average success.
1. Get speed down to 140 on a downwind leg.
2. Turn towards carrier reducing boost to around 3.5 and letting speed fall towards 130 - extend gear and hook.
3.Sit up in seat to full extentaiming to get carrier in view.
4. Pull nose up so that far end of deck is JUST passing in and out of view below nose - use throttle to maintain 110 - 120kts approach at this attitude - LEAVE FLAPS IN.
5. At final approach deck will disappear - use tower as reference against edge of cowling - extend flaps (time is practice bit) at last minute to bleed speed to <100 as you go over fantail - stall warning should just be buzzing.

I have landed on several times - each time not hooking a wire but still stopping easily on deck with brakes - I think the tail must bounce over the wires.

Anyway maybe try this and see how you get on.

Funked - I would be interested in your views.

Sparks

Bradburger · « **Reply #7 on:** December 30, 2000, 07:35:00 PM »

Glad yo found the info useful Funked. Also good to see you have ordered Quills book. Makes for a great read!

From this handy little reference book i have it tells me that 1 knt = 1.151 mph although this is for international knots. I'm not sure whether knots in RAF aircraft were U.K knots or international (probably, i'll have to check) but if it's any help 1 U.K knot = 1.001 international knots!

As for the Spit flaps Maverick, they should give a marked nose down trim change when lowered but the last time I checked out the Spits in AH, the flaps took far to long to go down (and up for that matter). However i wouldn't reccomend using them to see the deck anyway.

Quills guidelines should put you in good stead for deck landing the Seafire. It will probably take a lot of practice but it should be rewarding when you pull off the perfect deck landing!

Cheers

Paul

juzz · « **Reply #8 on:** December 30, 2000, 09:47:00 PM »

The book "SPITFIRE A Complete Fighting History" by Alfred Price(OR Spitfire at War 2) has Quill's report reproduced in full.

grizz · « **Reply #9 on:** December 31, 2000, 01:37:00 AM »

I've been 100% successful using the technique I posted in the help and training forum...for the dhog. I have only been successful once

with any of the other carrier aircraft and that was the seafire. Thanks for posting, everyone...going to go attempt some of these landings now.

And look up some of these books you all keep talking about.

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griz
THUNDERBIRDS
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Sundog · « **Reply #10 on:** January 03, 2001, 10:28:00 PM »

FWIW, I have been landing all aircraft (except the spit) at 100mph and using the the carrier island as a reference for my location relative to the boat. I maintain 80ft altitude and when the carrier appears in my peripheral vision, either side of the canopy, I am able to make a safe landing every time regardless of plane type (Thats a trap..not just a landing).

For the Spit I use about the same as above, but sometimes I fly a curved approach or an angular appraoch, and move my head (POV) sideways in the cockpit to make the correction at the trap. However, I have not been able to get the 'hook' to catch using the spit. Also, when making a curving approach, I try to make sure I am over the fantail of the rear left destroyer when at 90 degrees of my turn in on the downwind leg of the approach.

Also, I know many of you know this, but JIC, when landing on the carrier, make sure you use pitch to control airspeed and power to control rate of descent. I am only mentioning this here, because it keeps people from making a lot of mistakes before they try to make a trap.

Finally, if nothing here helps you, get a team mate to go to the carrier hanger and hit f3, then f8, and lower their POV enough that they can act as your LSO and wave you off if you make a really bad approach

Addenda: Mav, I believe they usually had the canopy open so that if the plane went into the drink, they could make a quick exit before she sank.

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Sundog
VMF-111 Devildogs
'Criticism is always easier then craftmanship.'

[This message has been edited by Sundog (edited 01-03-2001).]

skernsk · « **Reply #11 on:** January 04, 2001, 03:08:00 PM »

I basically attempt to land the Seafire with instruments.

1. Deck is approx 60ft
2. Speed about 90mph
3. PRAY!!

It is very tough and I usually require several go aroundsw but I have not punched a hole in the fantail lately............